Well your close to right on the anabolic/androgen ratings. Basically testosterone can be converted by the body into androgen. Androgen being the female sex hormone (guys still have it, just like girls have test. but we’re talking ratios). Anyway I would assume he means conversion ratio causing androgenic (IE unwanted) sides, chiefly gyno. I have heard tren is bad for hair loss and temper, but then again thats hearsay, whereas the conversion to androgen is something that is a fact. Thats why you want non-aromatizing compounds, they don’t convert.
If your going to cut the standards are winstrol and clen, but if you can cut without I see no reason why not to. As always with cutting, diet and cardio are 80+% of the battle.
If the alternative is using orals I would at least give it a run once and see how you like it. Specially if anadrol is your oral of choice. Of course, all this is in theory.
temper I can live with…but the hair loss thing is the biggest of my concerns…if some loss does come with a cycle…will it come back when ur hormone levels return to normal?? If I did try orals it would only be for 4 weeks or 30 days like you said…that’s actually the rule of thumb among pros, yes the ones who never stop taking A.S. I’ve read about the superheavyweights never coming off the juice and cycling orals 4 weeks on and 4 off…getting blood work done every six weeks…they said that the only reason to cycle off is if ur blood work comes out bad or ur receptors are saturated…when you stop seeing gains…
What’s bad though is…everybody I’ve heard of getting gyno…was from short, heavy, oral only cycles…and it wouldn’t show up until way down the road…and they’re like “it’s been xx months since I finished it…”
Now even with a compound that is heavy in the aromization category an AI and/or nolvadex would keep that from ever becoming an issue correct? And if u are running an AI what does that do to ur test levels?? Would fighting the conversion of test make it stack even better for elevated blood levels? Or would the excess just be flushed out of ur system in a matter of weeks?
Just wanted to say that I did some more research and there is nothing that stops the aromitazation of test to androgen…AI’s inhibit the conversion of androgen to estrogen (it’s SUPER technical, that’s the short version of what it does…which I’m sure chaos is familiar with the long version of what it does and prolly undertands it better than I)
In order… Hair loss is generally expected to be permanent, other than what rogaine and the like can regrow, which varies per person. Many combat the hair loss by starting the minoxidil before cycling for what its worth. Hair loss in general is a genetic thing though and your not going to lose it if your not predisposed no matter what you take (see Cutler, Jay or Priest, Lee). However if your at risk, this will speed the process.
The receptor saturation theory is kinda outdated, or at least out of favor now. In the mid-late 90’s it was all the rage to take bizarre ass super expensive cycles because different esters and what-not hit different sites, but that is not currently held to be true. I’m not saying you won’t see diminishing results just that tolerance is an overall matter, not to a particular ester. I don’t know if you even remember or have heard of the old saturation theories, they aren’t talked about today.
There are indeed people who never come off, but these are pro’s who lack the genetics to do otherwise. They are normal (well above average but not godly) gened guys who have worked their way up and cannot afford to drop pounds. They do maintanence doses and then blitzes but I’m not to familiar with dosage patterns as it doesn’t interest me (year round usage). When these guys come off they are screwed for sure though, because the whole point of coming off is to keep your endocrine system working in leiu of juice.
Now on to the biggie, which I hoped to avoid by over simplification (lol). Depends on your AI method. The only reason you would run nolva mid cycle is is you start feeling sensitive in the nipple to try and head off gyno or maybe reduce water retention. Since your not gonna stop rising androgen you can stop the problematic conversion to estrogen by choosing non-aromatizing juice. The problem comes when post cycle you have the elevated (remember you cannot avoid elevating androgen as a basic rule) androgen/estrogen and your dropping test input and cannot make any yourself. If you’ve properly structured a cycle you should run short acting esters on the tail end of your long acting ones so that you basically go right off cycle into PCT. You don’t wanna inject something like 250 and start PCT the next day because you still have ester floating around so you really send your body screwy signals.
So this puts us at cycle end with elevated androgen and estrogen, and basically no test. This makes us very catabolic and unhappy because in this state our earlier gains are gonna be lost quickly. So our goal is to maximize the bodies recovery to making its own test and minimizing the impact of all that free floating andro/estro. What clomid/nolva does is trigger the body to release more LH (leutinizing hormone) and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) via the hypothalamus and gonadotrophin. These kick start the bodies natural test production. They also act as estrogen-inhibitors by binding to receptor sites for estrogen, and occupying those sites so free floating estrogen cannot get in and do its evil work. Your choice is basically due to the fact that nolva selectively opperates in teh breast/bone and clomid hits the endocrine system. The nolva/clomid debate rages on.
As for aromatase inhibitors they would cut off the conversion of andro to estro by cutting off the enzyme (or one of the enzymes in the pathway). Give me the one you are wanting to know about and I’ll check it out. Oh and to further clarify clomid and nolva do NOT inhibit conversion, they have no AI properties they only are receptor substrates.
If I had known you were this informed I wouldn’t have tried to beat around the bush in the earlier post magnus, but most people want you to give nuts and bolts only. I personally find the subject fascinating.
heh, I too find it fascinating…I just frequent a few sites and try to pick up the lingo as I go and ask informed questions (not much different than what I’m doing here right now) when I can…
As for AI…it’s funny you asked which one I am thinking about…cuz I just read an article about the different ones…particularly aromasin…aromasin was previously thought to be inferior to letro (?) and arimidex but in this article it was describing how differently they work as AI’s (type 1 and type 2)and that they both have their place…for instance it was saying that aromasin and nolvadex is a great combo for PCT because 'sin allows for some androgen/estrogen conversion which is actually healthy for joints for one and a few other things and 'sin’s effectiveness isn’t inhibited by nolvadex and also helps in boosting natural test levels. It said that in order for type 2 AI’s to continue to work you do have to KEEP taking them but they block roughly 98% of estro conversion…but when taking nolvadex it can render it only 60% effective at times.
So while ur checkin around on AI’s…onto another big topic today…HCG. For those of you just tuning in…HCG is a compound that simply put…puts mass back on ur testes after a cycle…(or at the tail end of a cycle) supposedly this just makes it easier for the body to produce natural test levels sooner than with atrophied testes. One problem is hcg itself doesn’t boost NATURAL test levels, it actually suppresses natural production because it mimics LH, correct me if I’m wrong chaos…So what are your thoughts man?? Some think it’s counterproductive during pct and actually sets you back, some think it should be run during cycle to KEEP mass on ur testes and some think it to be completely unneccessary and choose to just do nolvadex 2 weeks out @60mg first week/40/40/20.
Most conventional wisdom and availability favors arimidex, and I have no reason to disagree. You would run it thoughout the cycle and have the actual benefit of stopping formation of Estradiol/estrogen instead of just receptor site occupation as Nolva does. I also believe that nolva lowers IGF-1 levels while arimidex slightly boosts them, which is obviously another advantage. As far as AI superiority nome like proviron, some like aromasin, doesn’t seem to be any consensus or real evidence supporting either. You need to remember there is no reason to run and AI inhibitor unless you need it, every compound you add stacks sides and strain on your body in a exponential, not linear fashion. Using helps estrogen fat deposit (female hormone, elevated levels in cycle can lead to increased fat deposits in “female” patterns), HPTA levels and bloat. But the loss of estrogen is not so good on joint health, so its a tossup. Big concern here is that AI compounds can really kick up blood pressure.
As far as HCG goes first of all I just wouldn’t be jumping the gun to run it during a cycle, again stacking drugs does more than increase sides a little, its a multiplication thing. Additionally running it in cycle would actually lower the receptor sensitivity to the LH that it mimics, bad post cycle when we try to regain natural function. And sense it also converts to estrogen that is again pile on during cycles. I see the best (IMO only ) way to run it as post cycle in spurts, quitting well before you quit nolva/clomid. It should also be used post cycle on with nolva/clomid included, as it boosts estrogen via conversion.
From what I’ve read HCG is suppressive and doesn’t support HPTA recovery as it effectively removes it from the equation (it’s not needed for the production of LH, IIRC) making it counterproductive to PCT…recently it’s been stated that it’s best to run toward the VERY end of a cycle…perhaps a day or two after last injection and running right into PCT…They say not to take large doses at one time but spread them out over the week…so as not to cause leudig (sp?)cell desensitization.
As for AI’s and nolv…shit is really complicated…if you use it, it could be bad for you…if you don’t…it could be bad for you…KEYWORD COULD. And since everyone’s body is different to a certain degree…there’s no one “right” way to do things…only the “safest” way…
I should clarify that when I said "quitting well before you come off clomid/nolva I was referring to usage of HCG mainly in the downtime between last injection and clearing of esters from the body, that time between last injection and the true start of post cycle. The cell destruction you are talking about is really just receptor downgrading to the effect of LH. These cells bind LH and HCG, so when you have an influx of HCG you would be making the cells naturally less receptive to LH when it becomes available again. The more prevelant a compound is the less the body needs to be ready to accept it as it presents, since more floating around means more chances later to bind. Since your LH is already down this further kills you if you stay on, which is why I suggested that you use it (HCG) in spurts so you get little boosts without receptor downgrade.
For this reason HCG is NOT inhibitive during a cycle, only following one. On cycle your not getting LH release because your not getting gonadotrophin releasing hormone release which would lead to LH and FSH release. Why? Because its on a feedback system with the andro/estrogens and on cycle you obviously have boatloads of both so it downregulates production. Since there is no way to overcome this feedback situation you are going to have testicle atrophy right? If you are on an HCG ON CYCLE it will bind to those LH cells in the testicles and act as if it was LH, keeping your mass and a little activity. So saying it is inhibitory is completely pendant on the status of your endocrine system as a whole.
As far as AI and nolva/clomid, its fairly safe post cycle if done correctly. However individuals present with vastly different reactions to hormone manipulation, much more so than to any other catagory of drug. Therefor its hit and miss to a great extent. For ease of mind, safeness, lack of stacking effects and cost I would not run and AI during a cycle. Nolva? Only in case of gyno. Its not worth saving a few pounds of water weight gain to stack endocrine agents. I mean you easily shed that water weight quickly as soon as you come off anyway so what are you really accomplishing?
By inhibiting, I meant it was counterproductive AFTER a cycle…because it doesn’t help you recover ur natural test levels at this point, it delays it, as you said. But Very informative nonetheless, so if I understand you correctly you recommend multiple spurts of HCG on cycle??
Having it put that way…I totally agree…that’s what I needed to hear…and you are right…I dropped the water immediately last time…I am doing nolva this time around in the pattern I posted earlier at 60mg first week then 40/40/20…starting 14 days out…I lost alot of strength last time and I can’t afford to start over again…would you recommend anything else post cycle?? And from ur own experiences (I’m assuming you have prior use, excuse me if you’ve only researched) How much strength were you able to retain?
Who here on this forum actually compete in BodyBuliding? I just competed and ended up with 2nd place in the middle wt open division 3 weeks ago and then ended up getting 1st place a week later in the states for the 181 powerlifting division with a 400lbs bench at 178lbs. If there any bodybuilders here, drop me a line I have some specific question about sodium loading.
I’m the asian guy in the line up!
I haven’t heard of it, but it sounds like you would just retain water…and to step on stage you want to lose water…usually by use of diuretics…but you know as much about that as I do, if not more…I plan to step on stage in late 2006-2007…I’ve got a long way to go and a lot to learn. I graduated high school @ 140lbs fully clothed…now I’m a naked 205 and barely 22.
No offence taken, you have to remember I dont keep that look for more then 2 or 3 days tops. If I had a sweatshirt on, you would’nt even know I’m a bodybuilder as I’m only around 190 lbs off season and compete at the 172lbs!
As far as excessive goes, I’m not sure what you mean, I’m a competitive bodybuilder, thats what the judges want to see! I’m not in the gym so I can get girls or look cool, I’m in there training for competition.
I think it’s EXCESSIVE, when I see these freakin people camp out over night at BestBuy and wait 12 hours to buy the 360, freeze there ass’s off so they can sit in front of a couch the next day and play videogames for 10 hours straight! But thats just my opinion.:razz:
A-FUCKING-MEN to that brother…Hell I didn’t think you looked that huge anyway…ur back looked like ur strongest point from what I saw of those pictures…are you a natural bodybuilder??
No I have been on 4 cycles now. Mostly for powerlifting then bodybuilding. The gear helps ALOT with my strength, but I don’t like the water retention.
For bodybuilding it’s 90% diet and I will somtimes mess with the duiretics before a show!
I usually will do two 10 week cycles a year.
I’m training for the march 06 nationals in northern kentucky next!
So what have you tried?? And what are you doing for PCT??
Me personally, I’m trying to bulk for real…not because I’m that small now (5’10" over 200lbs now@around12 13%BF, wanna be @210-215 10% in the oncoming 5-6 weeks) but I like the gains in strength I get EVERY week when I put on a pound here and there…I wanna get stupid massive now so when I diet down I will still be big and ripped…
I agree on the diet part…and the water always falls right off me first thing after a cycle…
What kinda help you need with sodium loading? You look great in those pictures just a bit smooth. A little better usage of water manipulation and you would have looked a good deal better. Still very impressive keep up the good work. And to say he looks huge and photoshopped is insane, that is a classic physique and not even close to being misproportioned.
Strength gains are gonna go, but if you come off and you should hold at 90% or so of the weight you end a cycle doing, so if you end up benching 400 you should be able to hit the same reps at about 360. And your correct about HCG use in spurts, I can go into further detail if you want I’ll be home fri-sun this weekend.
As far as bulking goes your also right, if you wanna be big, and by big I mean real mass not just brad pitt in fight club, your gonna have to bulk up to 14-15% sooner or later. Try to keep the gains as clean as possible and remember your gonna drop that water so your not as fat as you look. Also key is structuring your cutting cycle to keep as much muscle mass as possible. I see no reason not to bulk for the next 3 months in your shoes, start losing in march and by may (late spring-early summer) you can drop an easy 15-20 pounds and have that be majority fat not muscle. 20 pounds clean losing at 215 pounds would put you in the neighborhood of 190-195 with 7-9% BF.
Well, based on my estimated start weight of 330 (which i feel is quite an accurate estimate. If anything i’m pretty sure it was a little low actually), as of yesterday I have lost 100 pounds!!:wow:
Feels great, but i’m gonna keep going on down below the 200 mark i guess, because i still have lots of fat to lose.
