I understand what Decapre does, I’m sitting at well over 200 games with her, dude. I’ve been playing her since release, I know how she functions and what she does.
It’s just that it’s very easy to big up Decapre as this infallible goddess of offensive potential, but holy shit she’s not Top 3. You’ve likened her to Cammy in nearly every respect, yet Cammy never makes any Top 5 lists, despite the fact Decapre does some things better than Cammy and some things worse than Cammy, whilst someone like Ibuki plays Cammy’s game and does it better with little to no downsides, same with Viper and arguably Yun.
Top 10, hell yes. But Top 3 is nuts.
Like, if I did to Dudley to what you did to Cammy:
Better Normals than Decapre
More damage than Decapre along with a better up close mixup game than Decapre
Fastest overhead in the game goes into 300+ damage
60% screen fireball punish ultra
300+ damage from Anti Airs
Juggles. On. Everything.
Safe pressure on Oki and in typical pressure / block strings
I played a lot last night and i guess i now know why theres such a Decapre and increasing even more Ryu fest all of a sudden. Wtf did Decapre need buffs for and why does Ryu need alternating speeds on his fireballs? I swear facing Decapre was a nightmare because they can body you for free pressure and push you into a corner with no risk because of that stupid rapid dagger and pushback.
All I see online now is Blanka, Bison, Ryu, Akuma, Ken, Balrog and now even more Decapre. Does Capcom actually think balance patches of who needs help through or do they just follow flavor of the month characters? And did her input glitch even get fixed!?
And I still dont understand this top 10 either. When i go on YouTube to watch some high level matches and I see her getting bodied by Balrog and Dudley or playing catch me if you can with the likes of Blanka, Bison, and Vega it doesnt make any sense to me. And even worse to see everyone complaining about her 24/7 when shes getting her ass handed to her is even more annoying. Unless their character can take out anyone or its a shoto no other character can have any other advantage. Hell her DP is still pure trash because the majority of the roster can just use a basic normal to hit her out of it or just jump up. All of her stuff can be neutral jumped from everyone, her AAs still suck against jump alternating and divekick characters, now LMT she will sit there if you flip over the person so theres no use to provide a GTFO mixup moment, what does she have other than her fireballs that even other characters can slide through, spin through, and even use Ultras to pass through and straight destroy you???
But honestly I can see us getting more nerfs in the future because people are still complaining. This shit makes no sense with who gets a buff/nerf and who gets a get out of jail free card.
I wouldn’t say he has better normals then decapre. Almost every button Decapre has is very good. 3F jabs, going from +7/+4 to +6/+3, those are well above average. 4F Cr.lk is average. a 5F cr.MP that is one of if not the quickest medium level buttons, with a 5F start up and only 7F of recovery, and a nice meaty 4F of active frames. Thats only 15F total frame count, and +6/+3 advantage’s. 6F good ranged Cr.mk that has the hitbox infront of the hurtbox and good range, and lowers her profile. The all new 5F far.mp which has the same range as her cr.mk. 8F st.hk poke that does 110 damage (lol poison’s f.hp is 13F start up and 100 damage). 6F Cr.hp that works as an anti air, works great for frame traps, forces stand, does 100 damage/200 stun and can be FADC for +4, is +5/0 on hit/block and is +8 on counter hit. It links into her DP or new 5F F.mp. She can also target combo the 5F.mp into St.hp to blow up a focus abuser trying to get through her pokes.
Dudleys has a few REALLY GOOD buttons, but everything else is average or okay. Dudleys overhead is the best, as it is only -1 on block, and comboable into a fierce on hit, while being very very quick at 15F. His duff, the St.Hp is really good because it hits hard, 130 damage/200 stun, has great range, good start up for a fierce at 6F, and 6 beefy active frames. so hitting this move meaty or counter hit or both meaty and counter hit allows you to combo from it. His St.Hk is really good, 4F fierce normal is really quick, is comboable on counter hit and only 0 on block, despite its short range, smug still makes it look like an amazing counter poke buffered into EX MBG. His jabs are also 3F, but feel stubby/have short range. His MP’s are average, with Cr.mp only +4/+1 on block, and st.mp being better at +6/+3 but being susceptible to lows, and they don’t combo into EX MGB which is the main reason i say they are average. He doesn’t have a ranged low, and his buttons are all susceptible to lows (overhead, st.hp, st.mp, f+hp, duck etc).
2)I wouldn’t say more damage, id say more burst damage, as dudley is one of if not the best at burst damage. Dudley’s upclose mix up game is really good, but thats also because its his only form of mix up. Dudley isn’t ambigious, or have very good left right mix ups, He just has a very good basic Oki since his over head is really good and corner push is one of if not the best. Is that to say his really good up close mix up is better then decapres mix up of unblockables, cross up dive kicks, left right smash, feints, U1 mix up set ups etc? i don’t think it is
3)He does have the best overhead
4)dudleys 60% screen fireball punish starts up in 8F, Decapres U2 which is more like an 80% screen fireball punish is 7F. She has to charge hers though but it also can AA as well.
5)I don’t see how dudley is getting that much off an anti air, Unless you trying to say he anti airs with a LP DP? when do you ever see a LP DP anti air in high level play? LP DP anti airs come from horrible jump ins, and then he needs to spend EX on a whole bunch of duck juggles. On the flip side Decapre can AA for more then 300 with her DP, She can juggle 2 DP’s or juggle into U2 for dumb damage.
6)yea dudley has juggles on everything, so does decapre. She has juggle on smash, even more juggle on EX smash. Juggle on DP, juggle on air spiral, Juggle on U1, juggle from a damn target combo.
Decapre has safe oki too, and even better advantage from her normals.
how is he not top 3? because he has weaknesses?
Low forwards make it very hard for dudley, as they stop his forward momentum from walking and normals (st.hp, st.mp, f+hp, f+mk, duck etc). He doesn’t have an invincible reversal until he has meter, and all of his combos and momentum come from using meter, so hes heavy reliant on meter. His pressure is negated by grapplers, and his anti airs aren’t the best.
Don’t get me wrong, he is a very good character, i think he is top 10 at around the bottom, but you need to be on point with him every single time, You have to make a lot of reads too, as back dashing makes it easy to avoid his up close mix up game, so you have to sniff out back dashes with a f+hp, but that same move is also easily stuffed in its 13F start up. You have to be on point with your reactions to U1 the fireballs, You have to know all your character specific links and juggles, you have to respect the reversal with him too, getting over zealous with frame traps and pressure will make you eat a dp fadc ultra. It isn’t a surprise that there is only 1 person going ham with dudley, since before he CAN give you a very scary up close oki game, he has to first get in which is hard since if you have a low forward, your most likely going to keep him out with it quite easily.
I do agree with a lot of what you posted, but Dudleys normal AA’s in (s.MK and cr.HP) are absolutely fantastic, he shares common themes with Decapre, too, the one advantage being he can actually advance forward during his pressure without losing the ability to combo into huge damage.
I’m just saying, in the grand scheme of things, Decapre is being blown out of proportion. If she was so strong we would have heard about it from NuckleDu or some Japanese Decapre, she’s not much stronger that people are considering dropping their character for them (Floe and Ricky on Rolento) She’s just…Good.
I know you wrote a mountain and I replied with a mole-hill but hey. I’m lazy.
I have never seen Cr.HP be used effectively as an anti air TBH. It starts up in 8F which is very slow for an anti air. I have only seen it used as a meaty into St.Hk xx EX MGB. St.Mk is a decent AA, but it doesn’t AA cross up’s at all. His DP’s don’t have invincibility until EX so they aren’t the greatest either.
They’re all still usable in every sense of the word, though. I could argue that Dudley builds meter extremely quickly but I’m past the point of trying to convince anyone anything, you’ll believe what you believe and that’s cool, I just think it’s way too soon to catapult Decapre, a new, unproven character, straight into the Top 3 after some buffs which as of now, have yielded nothing for anyone in the pro scene to even consider her.
Now, from what I’ve seen and heard, you have a badass Poison, I just hit The Top 30 with her on Steam so I’m going to crutch on that for credibility when I post on the Tier list thread (Because Online rank matters, right? (^: ) Could I get some opinions on some Poison MU’s? Specifically the ones she wins?
Poison’s Number comes first, e.g Poison vs Rose would be 4-6 in favour of Rose. Bear in mind a 5-5 will sometimes equate to me not knowing the matchup, so please correct me if you think I’ve got some wrong.
Abel: 5-5
Adon: 5-5
Akuma: 5.5-4.5
Balrog: Unsure
Blanka: 4-6
Cammy: Unsure
Chun-Li: 6-4
Cody: 6-4
Crimson Viper: 4-6
Dan: 7-3?..
Decapre: 5-5
Dee Jay: 6-4
Dhalsim: Unsure
Dudley: 6-4
E. Honda: Unsure
Elena: 5-5?
El Fuerte: I’m not even going to pretend I know what to do
Evil Ryu: 4.5-5.5
Fei Long: 6-4
Gen: 6-4
Gouken: 5-5
Guile: 5-5
Guy: 5-5
Hakan: 6-4
Hugo: 7-3? 8-2?
Ibuki: I honestly want to say this is 7-3 in Ibuki’s favour
Juri: Even?..Maybe Juri wins?
Ken: 5-5
M. Bison: 6-4
Makoto: 6-4
Oni: 6-4
Rose: 4-6
Rolento: Unsure
Rufus: 5.5-4.5
Ryu: See, Pre-1.04 I had this as 6-4 for Poison. Now I’m not sure, his new fireball is fantastic, I’d really like some input here, I love this MU.
Sagat: 6-4
Sakura: 5-5
Seth: 4-6 / 3-7
T. Hawk: 6-4
Vega: 5-5
Yang: Unsure
Yun: Unsure
Zangief: 5-5
I didn’t rank Poison in the top 10 before the patch, and I certainly don’t see how she’s in the top 10 right now.
I don’t think Poison goes even with Decapre. It feels like a 4-6 to me. Same goes for Vega.
And I definitely feel the Bison match-up is in Bison’s favor. I would reverse those numbers.
@"Huggy Bear" here’s one I did recently on eventscrubs
Adon, viper, fuerte, and gen I have at even but I don’t have enough experience to clearly indicate what I feel it goes.
Since there is no .5 option, everything is at least 6 or 4, but I feel some matches there is only a .5 (dis)advantage. Like ryu I think now is only a 5.5 in our favor. And juri, rose, e.ryu and akuma I think is only .5 in their favor
God I put Bison as a 6-4? I think that’s one of Poison’s worst MU’s. My bad.
I honestly feel Poison beats Gen quite cleanly. Whilst I feel his buttons are leagues better than Poisons, he really doesn’t get much reward without spending 2 bars of EX minimum or super. Whilst we get a full rekka series into a hard knockdown, he stabs us a few times and pushes us to a range where s.HK destroys his jumps and HP AE becomes next to unpunishable.
He has no solid way around fireballs and his jumps lose to cr.HP / EX DP clean.
I know it’s a bit off topic from poison, but I agree with tali on decapre. I rarely see matches playing out to her full potential, even with Du. More often than not, I see more of her mixup gimmicks because people still haven’t gotten used to fighting her so the gimmicks work. Hell, you rarely even see her dp go punished on block, and it’s very unsafe despite the pushback. Once she sees a good deal more competitive play, the miners will begin to play her more honest and tap into the safe pressure that she can put out.
As for poison the top 15 to 20 are so viable that it’s always gonna be debatable who will fit in where. I myself would put her near the bottom of top 10, as she is another one where pros are barely tapping into her and leaving a ton of damage on the table.
I can handle band aid nerfs that don’t necessarily destroy the characters main offense/defense. Sure we took a hit to health, flip kick damage, and ex Rekka range, but 950 health isn’t the end of the world when plenty of characters have 950 or less. 3 bad mistakes with 1000 health or 950 still has you killed. Flip kick damage can be made up with comboing if anything. Ex Rekka is still pretty consistent. If a poison was hitting you with an offense before that killed you, it’s still going to kill you now. So yes she was nerfed but we got away with a scratch compared to what they could have done. The little extra range on regular rekkas is better then nothing, and the hit box improvement to ex dp is actually very noticeable and considerable. So if in the far future that their is another rebalancing, little buffs like that being hidden behind some nerfs that looker bigger like that on paper I will be happy to take. If I can get something that will improve my offense or defense, even slightly, for a nerf that still keeps my offense and defense intact, I’m all for it.
-50 health is only slightly visible when your defense fails and you get hit
-added whiff recovery on a slow move isn’t going to make you any more punishable, anyone who was whiff punishing before is still whiff punishing, anyone who wasn’t still isn’t.
-regular flip kick going from 190 > 150 hurts I know, but it’s now in line with most special move damage. And EX being untouched and still 200 is a godsend. It’s still +4 to get that lost damage and a rekkas knockdown has better set ups then a flip kick knockdown, now it gives more incentive to combo to get the old damage and better set ups and oki.
-EX Rekka less range, stealth nerf, I have not noticed the ex Rekka whiffing from ranges it hasn’t before, and if anything it still did get a vertical hit box to be a bit better against odd crouching reeling animations.
-EX DP hit box buff, this is actually pretty big because it doubled the sizes of the hit box and it is noticeably better. Situations where it might have missed or not gotten all hits don’t happen and it’s very consistent. This is actually a buff that improved a small aspect before.
The way I see it in most matches, I feel exactly the same except now my Ex dp feels far better and more reliable. If I lost before, 50 less health or not I’m still going to lose now. And if my flip kick beat you before and doesn’t now, you still can make up 40 damage of chip by safe meaty fireball, confirm it was blocked, string together a cr.mk xx lp rekkas and chip them out. I know the meaty fireball does 18 chip, I’m pretty sure 2-3 rekkas on top that do 40 or more combined chip.
So yea, nerf my icing as long as you make my cake bigger and I’m fine.
I love 1.04 Poison. I just hit Top 20 on Steam with her and I’ve really come a long way in developing my ground game. Coming from Makoto I can honestly say I didn’t know having walk speed felt this good.
