I think a big reason of Rose winning was the fact that she was just in a favorable match up after another. I have a friend that uses her and he feels she beats Fei and considring Louffy beat Mago and Fudo then i think it is a possibility. Rose vs Gief and Rose vs Sagat are also hands down in her favor as well. I think Louffy still played amazing and desrved to win for sure but he was lucky in that department. I think a big big reason was match up knowledge as well. Louffy has a Ton of Sagat match up experience while Bonchan probably doesn’t have a lot of Rose experience. Regardless though Louffy deserved the win because he was playing on an unhuman level that night.
I think on Paper Poison is like Rose, Yes we can win. I honestly think if a Sagat (( a Character that was question if viable or not)) was in the grand finals then any character could win. I mean there was a Zangief in top 4, a character with tons of bad matchups. I hope we see her represented at some point.
Just out of curiosity how do you guys handle your mirror matches? From the ones I encounter they are all over the place between the fireballs and lmt’s.
Having mained Rose since vanilla, I think this is an unfair comparison. In my opinion I think Rose has some better tools than Poison. Primarily cr.MP (this is a godlike poke) and her slide (which can be used defensively- go under jump/cross ups/ fireballs or offensively) - Poison doesn’t really have anything similar. In a fireball match Rose will be able to build meter quickly with LP reflect (Poison has no equivalent?), LMT despite going over fireballs is not as good as reflect for shutting down a fireball game. Soul spiral is great for maintaining pressure and a really good focus breaker compared to LMT. On top of all of this I think Rose has some of the best ultras in the game - Ultra 2 itself has so much versatility. Rose has a godlike walkspeed and backdash together with a great horizontal reach on a lot of her normals. Rose’s forward dash being buffed in USF4 makes her even more scary - Poison does have the backflip special, but it’s just not the same. Rose does not have an overhead… other than that her pressure game is much better than Poison’s imo. I don’t think Poison is bad by any means, I just don’t think she is great either. I think there are a few things that could have been done to make her better without breaking her all together. Right now I think Poison has a really strong fireball game… but with focus and other system mechanics a strong fireball game is not necessarily the “right stuff”: some of the consistently strong top tier characters don’t even have fireballs (i.e. Yun, Cammy, Fei Long) and those that do have fireballs (E.Ryu and Akuma) excel in other areas as well.
Maybe the Japanese players know something we don’t? However I think a lot of it was too premature and probably based on character unfamiliarity.
Well Poison is primarily a zoning character with a very strong corner pressure game and a good Oki on knockdown. Your main gameplan would be to utilize you fireballs to hold your ground and pushing your opponent to the corner as much as possible. Once you had them cornered you can really apply some pressure with the HP fireball EX LMT cr.MK EX AE F.MP(overhead) and throws. You basically have tons of options in the corner and all of them can potentially lead to a knockdown that leads to a meaty to repeat the pressure again. You basically bully them into the corner and keep the there. The zoning and pressuring is matchup dependent of course but this is the general gameplan.
Your main BnB and hit conifirm would be 2 cr.LP , St.MK or cr.LK xx WoL (Rekkas). St.MK is a 1 frame link but it deals more damage of course overall. Poison has a lot of close normals so there is a ton of close only combos but you can check that out in the combo thread
Overhead links into cr.Lp on counterhit and on crouching opponents so that is important. You can link a cr.LP after a LMT so that is very important too.
BnB into Ex Rekkas is a must though because you either score a reset, combo into U1(Doesn’t work mid screen on some characters Cody and Fei are the ones i remember atm) or just scoring a knockdown by juggling with another set of rekkas in the corner. You basically do the reset by forward jump cancelling the 4th hit of the rekka.
You can do stuff like EX.Wo >> J.MK >> dash under This is a standing reset that switches sides.
This was just an example but there are a lot of other that you may experiment or check out the Oki thread.
I can’t give you specific numbers but it is tricky for Gief to get in on you if you are playing the fireball zoning correctly. The slow fireballs is hard for him to deal with so you can do really good stuff keeping him out. Anti airing might be tricky though but this is something that you have to practice for yourself but generally St.MP works well to anti air his J.HP. This will most likely be a pure zoning match so do your best to zone him and hold your ground as much as possible. Poison also has a nice backdash so that is defintly helpful in this matchup.
Adon I don’t have a lot of experience with sadly so maybe someone else would be able to shed some on that.
Vega is debatable, It is either unfavorable or even. Vega has by far superior buttons and mobility and his escape options from the corner makes it very hard to keep him there. However you can pressure him quite a bit with your fireballs and LMT pressure. Be careful though because Vega has a punish for almost all of your LMT pressure and can U2 or EX Scarlet terror through most of it. The key is to mix it up and not going into auto-pilot mode.
Surprisingly enough, when I face grapplers like Gief and Hugo, I rarely, if ever, use my Ultras since I really dont have a need to except for extra damage. Her fireballs basically give them the middle finger when I play keep away, and LMT is used if they try to use moves to avoid her AE’s. As for what I’ll use, I stick with Love Storm. They are so big that they are easy to hit, and even better when they do get close and try to be slick and use command grabs or rushing attacks.
Found somethings against Dhalsim in the lab. Might not be the best tools but hey its something we can use.
light lmt beats dhalsim’s cr.hp on reaction.
light dp can hit his far cr.mp on reaction but his cr.mp will go under medium and hard dp.
Blocked instand far hp can be punished with ex fireball on reaction mid screen or comboed from ex fireball into ultra for 472 damage. (max health. so that varies.)
To 527 damage for the same punish just use a second ex fireball in the corner.
Poorly spaced medium slide can be punished by cr.lk and dp on reaction.
Any light slide not spaced to the tip of sims foot can be punished be a cr.lp on reaction into whatever.
Mix up teleports without a fireball can be punished with
cr.mp
cr.hp
any dp
Ultra 1
Ultra 1 teleport mix up
if he teleports and you see you have time to do something. Punish the teleport with your own ultra 1.
You can also use ex lmt to escape the set up depending on where he goes.
The ex rekka mix up in the corner that I was talking about in the okizeme thread… yeah if you can train dhalsim not to do anything on his wake up and he still gets hit by cr.mk. Go for it because the next combo after will dizzy him.
if you are facing someone who doesn’t mash a dp when you set up a meaty HP fireball after the LMT throw, or forward throw, a dash up cl.mk is great on either hit or block because if the meaty hits, it combos, and if it is blocked you are +1 and a true block string, and a cr.lp xx lp rekka is a great follow up frame trap that you can confirm the rekka on hit, and the spacing allows you to be in pretty decent safe range if blocked. st.mk after the cl.mk is a great option too, but only as a frame trap on block because it doesn’t combo on hit, and st.mk’s range and hitbox is good in the spacing that cl.mk creates to beat cr.tch and 3 button tech. you can then mix up with a throw right after the cl.mk once you start hitting those frame traps.
you can also substitute the cl.mk for a cl.lk for the added frame advantage, and then swap that cr.lp for a cr.mp xx rekka/fireball/lmt
you can then start mixing it up with throws and overheads, as well as if you do a forward throw to start the mix up, if you do an immidiate hp ae, it whiffs so you can just dash up throw anticipating the fireball to dissapear before they rise, while they anticipate a block for the fireball.
Pretty sure Poison’s DP hitbox is somewhere in her tits and not her feet =__=. I really, really hate her DP.
Also, I played about 10 matches with a very competent Rose. Rose wins that match, hands down. She has a stronger fireball game, slide/cr.MP really have little answer, her ultras are better, her dash and walk speed are better. The only way I could secure a win is if I got her cornered. Be sure to throw her on wake up if she has meter, chances are she’ll do an EX spiral, which is now throwable. Once she learns to sit still nicely, the HP AE meaty mixup madness gets good.
If she starts pressure, get away, don’t challenge it. The only button I found to challenge cr.MP is cr.LP. If you can’t get back and return to a fireball exchange (for meter), cr.LP buffered may help.
I kept getting a lot of Chuns too oO. If they pick U2, they’re pretty much free to zoning. Chun’s fireball game is horrible when you have LMT to challenge her, cr.HP AAs nicely, and she really has no answer on wake up.
I think Poison and Rose can bully each other almost equally. Don’t be afraid to abuse throws against her because she can only back dash. I think the fireball game is even imo until either one of them gets meter. You can use her mp or heavy fireball and then do far standing hard punch to sniper her out of a reflect and if you have the reactions…U1 from heavy fireball when it hits. When it comes down to normal its (5.5-4.5 Rose). Im going to head into the lab later to see which of our normal can beat hers.
Btw can we see if we can get Capcom to get her walk speed from 0.40 to at least 0.425 or even 0.45 like fei longs?
The problem with kbg is that it has very few active frames (surprise surprise). Like mk for example has a hit box at the bottom on frame 4-5 with no hurt box because we are invincible. Then there is a 3 frame gap from frame 6-8 where we only have a hurt box (lol). Then frames 9-10 we have a small hit box around her knees about half way up from where it was before. Then from frames 11 and onward we are in full recovery.
Pretty much her dp has only 4 active frames and there is a gap between them. That’s why it only feels decent for grounded reversals when we use the first 2 invincible active frames. Ex though is fully active from start to end of its invincibility, there are no gaps that’s why it feels consistent.
Does Poison wakeup a couple frames faster than other characters?
I was playing my friend in a set the last week, and noticed I was able to consistently DP out of his (Abel) safe jumps and grab him out of his meaty setups. At first, I thought his timing was just off. But, after testing some safe jump setups against her, I began feeling like she just gets up faster.
Using Poison, you can Rekka combo, forward dash, then neutral jump MP as a safe jump against herself. Using the record function I tested this setup on various different character sizes, and the j.MP doesn’t even hit them - they hadn’t completely gotten up yet.
I also recorded various successful Abel setups against Cammy. Tested them against Poison, and could consistently DP out of them.
I don’t know if this was already known or not but apparently Poison can do her super while her fireballs are still on screen. I have tested this with the heavy,medium and light versions and they all seem to work. 1st is a video with the light one with a jump in from the opponent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsP0ZxvNczc&feature=youtu.be
The idea is that with this you might have a fireball on screen and still be able to punish a jump in with a super, The idea seem neat because her super seems like a good anti-air and i was successful anti-airing stuff like Ryu’s J.HP and j.HK quite well, The super will usually catch the tatsu too if they tried it ( may not get the full hits though). I don’t know how practical or feasible this is because she have some excellent EX moves but i can see this being practical and could lead for some very dirty setups and is defintly something to keep in mind when having a full super especially given the fast recovery on AE.
i have been using super as an anti air because the damage is huge. the only thing that sucks is when u use a fireball to get a jump in and go into super for the AA, if the fireball hits, you only get 1 hit of the super for Ass damage.