Jibbo already made his decision so there’s no need for further discussion, even though I still disagree with almost everything you say, and even the stuff I do agree with is not even remotely enough to demonstrate that Blanka is a strong character. BTW, close st.mk is not airborne from the first frame. He can get counter-hit low out of hit just like any other normal without being reset.<br>
<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/12740/ilitirit">ilitirit</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Jibbo already made his decision so there’s no need for further discussion, even though I still disagree with almost everything you say, and even the stuff I do agree with is not even remotely enough to demonstrate that Blanka is a strong character. BTW, close st.mk is not airborne from the first frame. He can get counter-hit low out of hit just like any other normal without being reset.<br></div>
</blockquote><p>
The whole point is to expose how people think, why characters are interpreted as bad characters. I’m not here to scold the masses way of interpreting characters, I want to understand it and improve on it. Most of the time people literally just don’t know any better and that’s okay.<br></p><p>For example, your point that close stand forward isn’t airborne first frame. This to me is like saying “Well since it’s not airborne frame one he can get counter hit by crouch techs. LOL ITS BAD AND CANT BE USED AS INTENDED!” Instead of focusing how it CAN’T be used, you could finding solutions of where it CAN be applied. I don’t know the exact game math myself but let’s say blanka isn’t airborne 'till the 3rd or 4th frame. Timing it meaty so that it leaves at most a 4 frame window will allow it to hit while he’s airborne. I dunno if I added that correctly, because math are hard… but you should at least grasp the concept of what I’m saying.</p><p>So please, continue further discussion.</p><p>Update: I just confirmed the block stun infinite works with Yoshi’s Sword Windmill poke (and a few other things from Yoshi) and Hwoarang’s HK Hunting Hawk. I might literally ban the first person that says “THEN WHY PLAY HUGO LOLZ”.</p><p>Update II: Works with Jin’s Median Line Destruction</p><p>… Seriously though :)</p>
<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteText”><a href="/profile/4188/JiBbo">JiBbo</a> said:<br>For example, your point that close stand forward isn’t airborne first frame. This to me is like saying “Well since it’s not airborne frame one he can get counter hit by crouch techs. LOL ITS BAD AND CANT BE USED AS INTENDED!” Instead of focusing how it CAN’T be used, you could finding solutions of where it CAN be applied. I don’t know the exact game math myself but let’s say blanka isn’t airborne 'till the 3rd or 4th frame. Timing it meaty so that it leaves at most a 4 frame window will allow it to hit while he’s airborne. I dunno if I added that correctly, because math are hard… but you should at least grasp the concept of what I’m saying.<br></div></blockquote>That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m just saying that if he’s counter-hit he doesn’t always get reset, so he can be meatied/or f.trapped for a full combo eg. in a tick setup. TBH, I feel like trying to address everything inaccurate about posted is just futile at this point. I mean, how am I supposed to reply to this:<br><br><i>You can’t have it both ways, that nobody ever needs to press buttons
against Blanka and yet oh no if someone sits there whiffing crouching
strong like a loon they’ll occasionally get a counterhit strong for 75
damage.</i><br><br>Nowhere did I ever imply that. I just questioned idea that far st.mp is “unchallengable for a huge chunk of the cast”. It’s obviously not the case. Blanka’s got a hurtbox at the edge of his hand on that move. It’s got nice range and active frames, but there are a ton of moves that can beat it. Somehow, my example of Ryu’s cr.mp got twisted into the implication that someone is going to sit there and whiff cr.mp move all day. Oh, and while we’re making implications like that let’s just ignore my comment about buffering into boost combos -_- <br>When discussion reaches this level, then for me it just becomes a tedious waste of time. I really should have just stopped when I read that the comparison between Blanka’s far st.lp and v.Cody’s cr.lk…<br><br>The blockstun infinite is cute, but until someone can demonstrate his other supposed “strengths” in a match Blanka’s going to remain a bottom tier character in my mind. There’s a lot about this character that just make absolutely no sense in this game (my main gripes are around his normals and frame advantage). I feel that he is useless on his own, and requires a good partner and maybe gemset to become even remotely viable. But every character in this game can be enhanced with the right partner and gem setup. I think anyone who thinks Blanka is “probably the best SF charge character” is deluding themselves.<br>
I’m not sure Cody should really be on the list. He’s nowhere near being a bad character.<div><br></div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/12740/ilitirit">ilitirit</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”> I really should have just stopped when I read that the comparison between Blanka’s far st.lp and v.Cody’s cr.lk…</span></div></blockquote><font size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 22.65625px;”>I’m getting sick of this, too. How is this not a valid comparison? They’re both 3 frame normals with amazing range, they both have the exact same frame data, they both can be boost chained safely. Is there a single normal in this game that compares more directly and accurately to Cody’s pre-2013 crouching light kick?</span></font><div><font size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 22.65625px;”><br></span></font><div><font size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 22.65625px;”>You keep focusing on this goofy minutiae that because something isn’t exactly perfect it’s really not that good. Standing close medium kick really isn’t that great because it’s not airborne on the first frame, even though not a single normal in the game is airborne on the first frame, from Guile’s upside down kick to Xiao’s overhead. Standing jab isn’t that great because, even though it has the best range in the game for a jab, even though it comes out in 3 frames in a game where that’s uncommon, even though it can be boost chained into standing medium safely at range, and even though it’s attached to a character with top tier move speed, this apparently isn’t good enough.</span></font></div><div><font size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 22.65625px;”><br></span></font></div><div><font size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 22.65625px;”>You complain about the frame advantage on Blanka’s normals, but who cares? Would Blanka’s strategy change if his crouching medium kick was +3 on block instead of +1? How is this a deal breaker?</span></font></div><div><font size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 22.65625px;”><br></span></font></div><div><font size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 22.65625px;”>Yeah, standing strong can be beaten. So can every normal. But standing strong has great range, a ton of active frames, and recovers super quick, and a lot of the cast has a hard time dealing with that move backed up with standing jab whiff punishes. No, it doesn’t win in poke wars against Cammy standing medium kick or Bison’s kick chain, but it does great against the huge chunk of the cast with midde-tier pokes, it’s active frames and fast recovery are good at catching all the step kick type moves in this game and forcing people to actually whiff things to deal with it so that you can whiff punish with standing jab. It catches jump start-up out of the air, and inside it’s range you can combo off it. It’s a good move.</span></font></div><div><font size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 22.65625px;”><br></span></font></div><div><font size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 22.65625px;”>I can’t magically influence what people decide to play and put on youtube or in steams, so the whole “find good match videos of Blanka” is kind of out of my hands. But you’re not convincing me with this argument where the major thrust of it is “his attacks are not foolproof and can be countered”. Virtually every criticism you’ve levied at his normals could be levied at any character’s moves.</span></font></div></div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/12740/ilitirit">ilitirit</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteText”><a href="/profile/4188/JiBbo">JiBbo</a> said:<br>For example, your point that close stand forward isn’t airborne first frame. This to me is like saying “Well since it’s not airborne frame one he can get counter hit by crouch techs. LOL ITS BAD AND CANT BE USED AS INTENDED!” Instead of focusing how it CAN’T be used, you could finding solutions of where it CAN be applied. I don’t know the exact game math myself but let’s say blanka isn’t airborne 'till the 3rd or 4th frame. Timing it meaty so that it leaves at most a 4 frame window will allow it to hit while he’s airborne. I dunno if I added that correctly, because math are hard… but you should at least grasp the concept of what I’m saying.<br></div></blockquote>That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m just saying that if he’s counter-hit he doesn’t always get reset, so he can be meatied/or f.trapped for a full combo eg. in a tick setup. TBH, I feel like trying to address everything inaccurate about posted is just futile at this point. I mean, how am I supposed to reply to this:<br><br><i>You can’t have it both ways, that nobody ever needs to press buttons
against Blanka and yet oh no if someone sits there whiffing crouching
strong like a loon they’ll occasionally get a counterhit strong for 75
damage.</i><br><br>Nowhere did I ever imply that. I just questioned idea that far st.mp is “unchallengable for a huge chunk of the cast”. It’s obviously not the case. Blanka’s got a hurtbox at the edge of his hand on that move. It’s got nice range and active frames, but there are a ton of moves that can beat it. Somehow, my example of Ryu’s cr.mp got twisted into the implication that someone is going to sit there and whiff cr.mp move all day. Oh, and while we’re making implications like that let’s just ignore my comment about buffering into boost combos -_- <br>When discussion reaches this level, then for me it just becomes a tedious waste of time. I really should have just stopped when I read that the comparison between Blanka’s far st.lp and v.Cody’s cr.lk…<br><br>The blockstun infinite is cute, but until someone can demonstrate his other supposed “strengths” in a match Blanka’s going to remain a bottom tier character in my mind. There’s a lot about this character that just make absolutely no sense in this game (my main gripes are around his normals and frame advantage). I feel that he is useless on his own, and requires a good partner and maybe gemset to become even remotely viable. But every character in this game can be enhanced with the right partner and gem setup. I think anyone who thinks Blanka is “probably the best SF charge character” is deluding themselves.<br></div>
</blockquote>
I feel like dismissing such things are basically against the point of the thread IMO.<br><br>It’s all about spreading information (and by proxy stifling misinformation)<br><br>Nothing’s really gained by just giving up on what seems to be futile (for either side).<br><br>I’m kind of reminded of the argument on KOF XIII’s Leona here.<br>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/70040/Disaster%20FX">Disaster FX</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/41564/Easternwarrior">Easternwarrior</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Steve<br><br>-Only close jab and cr. jab is 4 frame.<br>-Gimped from having no kicks apart from crouch normals replaced with VERY situational weaves and quick spin follow-ups.<br>-Has only 4 LOWS cr. light (5f), cr. sweep (low range -8), and quick spin > low swing (slow and -9f on block), b+k (slow,m short range)<br>-Terrible overhead (17f, cannot combo off raw or cross cancel, only by hitting a cr. counter-hit)<br>-Lives off frame traps but all the other guy needs to do is crouch block (getting hit by a 80 damage slow overhead is better than standing and eating lows and a Gattling Gun throw.)<br><br></div>
</blockquote>
17f is far from a terrible overhead. Akuma’s is 17f. Nina’s is only a couple frames faster. Want terrible? Marduk’s is 23f. <br></div>
</blockquote>
Akuma’s overhead can be cross switched in on hit. Marduk’s may be 23f startup but is +8 on HIT and ONLY -1 on block. Like I said Steve CANNOT switch cancel or combo (+2 on hit and -3 on block) from a raw overhead hit and we have characters like Nina, Paul, Hwoarang, Jin, Julia, (Insert other Tekken cast here) that can do overheads on the whim and get rewarded for it.<br>
<blockquote class=“UserQuote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/10052/Mnszyk">Mnszyk</a> wrote: <a href="/discussion/comment/7996713#Comment_7996713" class=“QuoteLink”><span class=“ArrowLink”>»</span></a></div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>I’m getting sick of this, too. How is this not a valid comparison?<br>
</div></blockquote>If by now you still can’t see the difference between a low and a high <b>after I explicitly explained the basic properties</b>, then you are an idiot. Oh but let’s just ignore this completely and suppose they are the same. That’s why v.Blanka was as strong as v.Cody, right? Right?<br><br>Seriously, just stop playing 2D FGs completely. Everything you posted has just been a complete waste of my time. You asked me to debunk things that were posted, and I did. Now you’re trying to rework your arguments? You’re delusional. At this point in the game’s life, Blanka is not “probably one of the strongest SF chars”. If you want serious Blanka discussion, then please refer me to someone who actually knows how to play FGs. I mean, either you don’t even understand the basic ideas behind lows/highs, and close and far normals and what the frame advantage behind these things mean in a game like this, or you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing. In either case, it’s a waste of mine and everyone else’s time <b>especially </b>if you have no evidence to prove your point when I explicitly defeat yours with evidence from the actual game in terms of frame data and hitboxes. Seriously dude, STFU about Blanka, and find me someone who actually knows WTF they are talking about and doesn’t need silly strawman arguments to make a point if you want this discussion to continue. Maybe, just maybe I’ll take you somewhat seriously if you can even find comments from a top player that puts Blanka as somewhere close to the best SF charge character in a tier list. You’re polluting the thread with misinformation. Fanciful sayings and zeitgeist ideas about the game mean absolutely nothing.<br>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/63116/Josshu">Josshu</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>I’m not sure Cody should really be on the list. He’s nowhere near being a bad character.<div><br></div></div>
</blockquote>
As a naysayer to Cody being godly in Vanilla and staunch sayer of him being weak in 2013 I will agree he isn’t a BAD character. He is just weaker than every character who performs a similar role. He isn’t as bad as Vanilla Paul was by any means. However there is literally zero reason to ever play him over Hwo, Jin, Kaz, Heihachi, or Law every single one of which has better frame traps, better mobility, better anti airs, better damage solo or with a team.<br><br>He is only bad in the sense that everyone else is better he isn’t bad in the sense that he is fundamentally unable to be used properly like say Hugo or Toro or Kuro. Other than his c.LK being the only unsafe non-unique move light attack in the game he isn’t broken.<br><br>That said: Seriously a game where everyone has a LMH Chain combo and they don’t give Cody his Final Fight Chain combo back? Especially after nerfing all of his boosts combos to be in the top 5 most negative on hit/block in the game (Seriously, they are worse than Gief) they should have at least given him that little piece of his history back :(<br>
<p>Lets be civilized.</p><p>… Besides, Blanka in the right hands is now literally broken. By that I mean he has unfair, unintended advantages. Unfortunately I’m serious.</p>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/12740/ilitirit">ilitirit</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><blockquote class=“UserQuote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/10052/Mnszyk">Mnszyk</a> wrote: <a href="/discussion/comment/7996713#Comment_7996713" class=“QuoteLink”><span class=“ArrowLink”>»</span></a></div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>I’m getting sick of this, too. How is this not a valid comparison?<br>
</div></blockquote>If by now you still can’t see the difference between a low and a high <b>after I explicitly explained the basic properties</b>, then you are an idiot. Oh but let’s just ignore this completely and suppose they are the same. That’s why v.Blanka was as strong as v.Cody, right? Right?</div></blockquote><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>Hey – jackass. I never said they were the same, I said they were comparable. That’s the whole idea behind a comparison, you take two similar things and look at how they are similar and different. You can just as easily point out that Blanka has vastly superior walkspeed and gives his frame traps using standing far jab far more teeth. They’re different, but for all your bluster, the point of comparison for a 3 frame poke that dominates due to range, speed, and hitbox is valid.</span></font><div><div class=“QuoteText”><br></div><div class=“QuoteText”><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>If you just want to have a Blanka pity party, that’s fine, but I don’t think that’s the purpose of the thread. I’m not going to take seriously someone who whines about “spreading misinformation” by asserting that Blanka might be better than such unstoppable top-tier powerhouses as 2013 Balrog or Bison or Guile or Vega, and yet who obviously couldn’t be bothered to figure out the first thing about the character. If you just want to whine about how Blanka doesn’t cook your meals for you, there’s a balance thread where you will fit right in.</span></font></div></div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/4188/JiBbo">JiBbo</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><p>Lets be civilized.</p><p>… Besides, Blanka in the right hands is now literally broken. By that I mean he has unfair, unintended advantages. Unfortunately I’m serious.</p></div>
</blockquote>Not quite. He needs a partner that will allow for the infinite (unless universal setups are found), and it relies on the opponent not having meter for an AC. It should be removed though, but it would be cool to see it being used at a tournament.<br><br>In any case, here’s to hoping for more low-tier tech.<br><br>ps. Rog/Ibuki next.<br>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/12740/ilitirit">ilitirit</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><br><span style=“font-size: 10pt;”></span><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/4188/JiBbo">JiBbo</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><p>Lets be civilized.</p><p>… Besides, Blanka in the right hands is now literally broken. By that I mean he has unfair, unintended advantages. Unfortunately I’m serious.</p></div>
</blockquote>Not quite. He needs a partner that will allow for the infinite (unless universal setups are found), and it relies on the opponent not having meter for an AC. It should be removed though, but it would be cool to see it being used at a tournament.<br><br>In any case, here’s to hoping for more low-tier tech.<br><br>ps. Rog/Ibuki next.<br></div>
</blockquote>
I found that Blanka can set up the infinite solo, with no meter, off of any knockdown. This is probably what Jibbo is refering to. Expect a video from him about this later this week:P<br>
<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteText”><a href="/profile/14854/SimSimIV">SimSimIV</a> said:<br>I found that Blanka can set up the infinite solo, with no meter, off of any knockdown. This is probably what Jibbo is refering to. Expect a video from him about this later this week:P<br></div>
</blockquote>
Against any character? Regardless, that’s broken and it should be removed.<br><br>edit: Lemme guess… Sweep, hop, infinite? What happens on backdash/roll?<br>
<p>Backdashes will escape it, but since you can hop last second, it’s hard to time. Rolls can escape, but you can also set the infinite up so it catches the roll. Some chars (Like Blanka himself) has a weird wake up hurtbox, so it’s harder to land it, but it works universaly. </p><p>Other stuff that beats it: AC obviously, and raw launcher/invincible reversal on wake up, or just take the hit before you end up in block stun!</p><p>I am sure Jibbo will elaborate on what he finds with it:)</p>
<p>With this developing tech he’s manageable but the bigger issue are the implications - the options it deters you from and what it forces you to consider. Alpha counter, costs a meter. Raw launcher is unsafe and you can’t punish electricity on reaction. Certain set ups will deter you from rolling into it so you want to stay put on the ground. If you do roll into it, you HAVE TO block. You have to defensively conform and sacrifice your resources to something that is unbalanced and unintended. Combine these things with his intended good stuff and he’s way too strong.</p><p>A capable Blanka who can do this right now (probably just me :P) is broken but make no mistake, when the dust settles he’s still a good character.</p><p>On the less than dim side, at least it’s not something the average joe blow can do. I consider myself to have some of the highest dexterity in the business but I still mess it up.</p><p><br></p><p>… So what low tier character should I break the game with next? >_></p>
Dammit it had to be Blanka didn’t it?
I’m actually trying to pick up a pocket Ibuki myself now. Really want to see if I can ever learn this character, and just how bad she is. My execution is being put on blast by her and Asuka though, lol.
<a href="/profile/4188/JiBbo">JiBbo</a> said:<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteText”>A capable Blanka who can do this right now (probably just me :P) is broken but make no mistake, when the dust settles he’s still a good character.<br></div></blockquote>Good in the sense that everyone is good in the right hands? Or good in the sense that he’s not low-tier?<br><br>Have you found anything worthwhile with him? He still has some of his setups from SFIV (eg. b.throw dash/hop x-up) but it’s not that strong in this game because of rolls. Basically every character now has one more option to escape besides what they already have. I still use it though. His hop mixups are as much of a guess for him as for the opponent, and you can backdash out of all his pressure strings (worse still are characters with teleports). He still suffers from the same problem he had in SFIV against down/back - it’s just not that easy to open up opponents who have good close anti-airs. Eventually he has to perform a gimmicky hop (death sentence) or jump (doesn’t work vs chars who have good close AAs) to try to get a mixup going. cr.lk inexplicably leaves him at -ve so some characters can block a close range crouch tech and then frame trap him to death unless he reversals, backdashes or cancels into something like b.hop, and even on hit he doesn’t get abare unless he is knocked back to far st.lp range, and that’s not very easy to do (unplinkable link on reaction off a light) And when it trades, at best he is left at neutral, but usually he is at a disadvantage and is forced to block the next attack (or reversal/backdash), and at worst the opponent gets a free combo because trading with lights usually gives medium and hard moves more frame advantage by bypassing recovery frames (hello Trade OS). This is kinda what people mean when they say he has no way of stopping people from pressing buttons.<br><br>In terms of punishment, solo I think the best he has is something like j.hk, close st.hk jab xx hop cr.mk up ball? In general I feel that in any punish situation he should be switching out to maximize damage. Otherwise it’s a wasted opportunity,<br><br>I agree that his quick jump and strong air normals are his best assets<br>
Woah, electricity infinite against roll. Why hasn’t anyone thought of
that before. They just move towards you so you don’t need a partner to
push them. The threat of this alone is enough to discourage someone
from rolling ever. <br><br>People who say "you can just alpha counter"
miss the point. You can only alpha counter 2-3 times at most (at the end
of the rounds) and alpha counter only does 120. But more importantly,
you have to sacrifice your meter because this is basically 300+
unblockable (into a throw/frame trap/overhead mixup) or 1000 dmg instant kill if they have perfect execution. Every single
time you get touched by this, you need to have 1 spare meter because
electricity doesn’t build you enough for blocking. And sacrificing
meter is sacrificing options, it’s reducing your damage ouput and
comeback factor. Against a team centered around this setup, having 1
meter is equivalent to having no meter. Having 2 meters is equivalent to
having only 1. It’s a huge handicap.<br><br>This tech reminds me of Quan Chi’s rune trap. Average character without it, extremely dangerous with it.<br><br>About
the execution factor, if something is possible then it can be mastered
to the point of being routine. There will always be players like Kelvin and Sako who can pull off the most ridiculous 1 frame links consistently.
So the difficulty of execution behind this tech shouldn’t be
considered when deciding if we should let it in the game or not.<br>
<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/26486/Vulcan%20Hades">Vulcan Hades</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Woah, electricity infinite against roll. Why hasn’t anyone thought of
that before. They just move towards you so you don’t need a partner to
push them. The threat of this alone is enough to discourage someone
from rolling ever. <br><br>People who say "you can just alpha counter"
miss the point. You can only alpha counter 2-3 times at most (at the end
of the rounds) and alpha counter only does 120. But more importantly,
you have to sacrifice your meter because this is basically 300+
unblockable (into a throw/frame trap/overhead mixup) or 1000 dmg instant kill if they have perfect execution. Every single
time you get touched by this, you need to have 1 spare meter because
electricity doesn’t build you enough for blocking. And sacrificing
meter is sacrificing options, it’s reducing your damage ouput and
comeback factor. Against a team centered around this setup, having 1
meter is equivalent to having no meter. Having 2 meters is equivalent to
having only 1. It’s a huge handicap.<br><br>This tech reminds me of Quan Chi’s rune trap. Average character without it, extremely dangerous with it.<br><br>About
the execution factor, if something is possible then it can be mastered
to the point of being routine. There will always be players like Kelvin and Sako who can pull off the most ridiculous 1 frame links consistently.
So the difficulty of execution behind this tech shouldn’t be
considered when deciding if we should let it in the game or not.<br></div>
</blockquote>
Did you miss the part where I said that you don’t need the roll or a partner to push them? Or am I misunderstanding you? Yes, it catches rolls, yes it works with a partner, but Blanka can set it up by himself very easily from any knockdown without the opponent rolling:P