Vega Q&A: Ask simple questions here!

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
2641

Could someone explain the logistics to me pls…When you focus cancel a move do you cancel any of the active frames or do you cancel the recovery frames only. If i press focus during the active frames does it wait until the completion of the active frame to focus?

there is a precise time at which moves can be canceled by focus.

there are basically different cancels

target cancels
like in target combos cancel, focus charge cancel,super jump cancels,connected focus attack dash cancel, flip cancel, special/ex/super cancel. those happen right after active frames and impact freeze frames if the move connected instead of the recovery.

chain cancels,
rapid fire chains fall into that category, fei long connected rekkas, gen connected flying kick follow-up, ibuki’s kunai, vega Flying barcelona jump follow-ups, vega super follow-ups they cancel what is left of recovery into a legit follow-up they cancel all recovery if they have been buffered ( pressed a bit too early)

startup cancels
focus charge dash cancel, aborted sagat HK, aborted twins palms, aborted vipers Thunder knuckle. they cancel the startup of a move into something else.

kara cancels
they are in all respect ‘an input engine exploit’ but the community consider it an interesting game mechanism. They cancel a move into a higher priority move because the game interpret your inputs as a poorly executed motion, they cancel the startup of a move in the first frame maybe the first 2. it can happen with every set of different priority moves. but we only ever speak about those we do on purpose. vega hk kara into throw, sagat lk kara into special, akuma cr.hk kara into ultra, etc…

in the combo you describe
EX.RCF differs from H.RCF in that
first it is fireball invulnerable
second it has 2 frame less of recovery.

the obvious result is that instead of being +2 on hit it is now +4 on hit which allow to connect any four framer of your choice ( a move with 4 startup on the frame charts in fact they only have 3 if you want to be correct)

But at the time when the post you refer to was made, we only knew it was going to be +4 on hit, the writer infered that the move would be given an extra 2 frames of hitstun and keep the same recovery which would allow for a 1 frame link into level 2 FA. The thing that happened is that the recovery was made shorter and the hitstun stayed the same, the frame advantage for a link combo is the same : +4 but for a target cancel it is the hitstun that matters since recovery is discarded completely the time you have is the time they are stuck in hitstun. and that time remained the same** ergo you cannot pull EX.RCF xx FA2 more than you can pull L.RCF xx FA2, M.RCF xx FA2 or H.RCF xx FA2.**

Unless you pull a meaty counter hit (very unlikely at our level) whatever.RCF(last) that would give up to 2 frame leeway .

2642

@Ajunta
Fantastic post as usual. Went back and tried it again as soon as I read this and successfully landed ex-rcf into fa2 into U2 again! Then I checked and saw my training dummy was set to not block :confused:
I had been wondering why Dan had been standing there(not in blockstun)after I canceled my ex-rcf and had not even attempted to block my FA. Really bursted my bubble but now at least I wont try it in a match.

2643

:frowning: you guys get my hopes up just to disappoint me over and over again…thnx for the info anyways…i was really starting to doubt my skill there for a sec…

2644

+4 is +4 regardless. lp.RCF on counter hit is +4, Ex RCF is +4. ill do it and record it with my shitty camera.

2645

Please do. I’d like to actually see this.

2646

yeah, once I get it down, what I noticed is that its very picky and anal about when you cancel the FADC. If you cancel the FADC later than sooner then you can’t even land a pre Lv.2 Focus attack. And when I cancel sooner, I can land a FA, but you have to let go the moment you get Lv.2. So not only do you have to cancel at the first possible moment, you have to let go at the first possible moment. 2 different things, each requiring 1 frame precision.

Like I said +4 frames is +4 frames, but like Ajunta pointed out, there is something different about the last hit of EX RCF, which makes this very impractible. Its possible in theory, not so much in practice because its all timing spaced out over a very broad time, and landing something like that with no visual cues or timing mechanism makes it impracticable.

I managed to do it once, when the game first came out, but never tried doing it in a real match because if I land cst.hp on wake up or on a jump in, im not wasting meter for Extra damage, when Im well capapble of reacting to whiffed normals and punishing with EX FBA. And use Ultra 1 to punish things.

tl.dr

you can do it, not worth it it, too strict, may be the strictest thing in the game. Save your meter for real punishment, and learn to punish with Ultra 1 if you want to use your Ultra.

2647

The only way i see it happen is ‘character specific’ like a char with a very narrow hurtbox with the last rcf hit hitting on its second or third frame instead of first which is usually the case. in which case there is a very good chance H.RCF allow you to do the same.

+4 is not +4 when you cancel cr.mp into ex FBA you connect in spite of being supposed to be at -1/0(meaty) because in fact you are at +15/+16(meaty) which enable you to connect in time with ex fba and its 8+ startup.

all versions of rcf last hit have 4 active frames cause 14 frames of impact freeze, 27 frames of hitstun, the move has 22 recovery ex has only 20.
if the first active hits you are +2 for a link +24 for a cancel (super or focus charge) EX gives +4 for a link +24 for a cancel
if the second active hits you are +3 for a link +25 for a cancel (super or focus charge) EX gives +5 for a link +25 for a cancel
if the third active hits you are +4 for a link +26 for a cancel (super or focus charge) EX gives +6 for a link +26 for a cancel
if you hit meaty you are +5 for a link +27 for a cancel (super or focus charge) EX gives +7 for a link +27 for a cancel
a counterhit will add 3 to all numbers above

(if the frame charts are correct) performing FA2 requires 16 frames of charge 12 frames of startup and 1 active frame that is 29 so on the paper it only works from a counter hit meaty or near meaty whatever rcf.

If you can pull it (out of a counterhit) then either the frame data are flawed, or i am wrong about focus charge being a "target cancel " and it is a chain cancel or at the very least has somewhat a bit of leeway.

another example would be cancelling into
focus charge cancel xx forward dash cancel >> st.HK it is no easier from an ex rcf than from any other version if +4 was +4 you would have 3 frames of leeway intead of the one you get with the regular versions.

Besides what pedo says about its utility is very true, even if it did combo
EX.RCF xx FCC xx FA2 xx FDC >> Forw.U1 would give
522 damage, 300 stun and cost 71.8% of your super meter
ji.HK >> cls.HP1 xx EX.RCF xx FCC xx FA2 xx FDC >> Forw.U1would give
526 damage, 484 stun and cost 60.6% of your super meter
that is a lot of super meter wasted, and (albeit possible) that is a tough combo to do on training stage already… in a match i would say it is impractical,

There is plenty easier stuff that you want to work on with vega like kara throws, option selects, linking stuff after a st.lk nowing how to punish diffretn classic moves at diffrent distances.

2648

The secret to if FA is chain cancel or target cancel lays in counter hit LP.RCF. Its odd that counter hit LP.RCF (last hit of course) is +4 and gives you enough time to cancel and land FA Lv.2. There is definitely something different about EX RCF. Something like EX RCF being +4 on hit wouldn’t get past those idiots at Capcom, and would not suit well with Ono’s vision as to what Vega is in SF4. Because having the ability to frame trap opponents and landing a 500+ damage combo does not go well with Vega’s current build and is completely counter intuitive to the AE build. I don’t know if I am seeing things, but the recoil animation after getting hit with EX RCF isn’t the same as the other RCF’s, it seems softer.

A theory as for why it is so hard

in theory may be possible, but an underlying mechanic makes it not possible? Have you considered that when an player cancels a move with FADC, the engine cancels at an X frame to prevent ridiculous combo’s ala Custom Combo’s? This game is not open for creativity contrary to what people say, as it is very limiting and deliberate in what it allows you to do. cr.mk is +5 on hit, so it should give you enough time to cancel into Lv.2 FA. if it doesn’t let you then it may be that the engine forces the cancel at an X frame to prevent custom combo’s.

2649

There is a chance that focus charging cancels ‘unused active frames’ on top of recovery frames in which case we would get +3 frames to do the FA-2 out of a focus charge cancel for RCf(last). game engine speaking it is not much diffrent from having the game chop the recovery alone and leave unused frame happen it is totally possible. in which case i am wrong in earlier posts.

frame advance alone is not enough data to understand a move in its whole, the older charts had hitstun and blockstun listed too that was more comprehensive.

cr.mk may give +5 if not meaty, it doesn’t mean there are enough frames to perform level2 FA between when it hits and when the other guy is freed from hitstun, +5 means shit when it comes to cancelling

+5 comes from the assumption that the first active frame hits,
then both people are stuck 10 frames in impact freeze,
then puncher is stuck for remaining active frame(2),
then puncher is stuck for recovery frames (9),
meanwhile the victim is stuck for the amount of the hitstun (16)

(10 + 16) - (10 + 2 + 9) = +5
if you hit withs econd active you get a 1 instead of the 2 because there is only 1 unused active frame
(10 + 16) - (10 + 1 + 9) = +6
if you hit meaty there is a 0 because the unsued active frame whiffed before the meaty one connected and none remains
(10 + 16) - (10 + 0 + 9) = +7

so that is for the move happening normally

considering the frame X theory

now in the case of a cancel lets assume the move is cancelled at frame X, wher exactly is frame X during cr.MK , I don’t know for sure, but what we do know is that it cannot happen before the first active frame because to cancel cr.mk into focus charging cr.mk must have connected. so we can deduce that X is one of the last 11 frames, so even assuming X is the most favorable frame for us (first unused)
then both people are stuck 10 frames in impact freeze,
then puncher start the cancelling move (focus charging etc. FA level2)
meanwhile the victim is stuck for the amount of the hitstun (16)

(10+16) - (10 + 0 + 0) = +16
and 16 is not enough we need 29 to land FA2.

in the case of say L.RCF2
(14 + 27) - (14 + 0 + 0) = +27

in case of counter hit L.RCF2
(14 + 27+ 3) - (14 + 0 + 0) = +30 it works with 2 frames leeway and we all know it does

in the case of say EX.RCF5
(14 + 27) - (14 + 0 + 0) = +27

in case of counter hit EX.RCF5
(14 + 27+ 3) - (14 + 0 + 0) = +30 it works with 2 frames leeway

My feeling was that X was the first recovery

which gives
then both people are stuck 10 frames in impact freeze,
then puncher is stuck for remaining active frame(2),
then puncher start the cancelling move (focus charging etc. FA level2)
meanwhile the victim is stuck for the amount of the hitstun (16)

(10+16) - (10 + 2 + 0) = +14
and 14 is even worse.

in the case of L.RCF2
(14 + 27) - (14 + 3 + 0) = +24

in case of counter hit L.RCF2
(14 + 27+ 3) - (14 + 3 + 0) = +27

in the case of say EX.RCF5
(14 + 27) - (14 + 0 + 0) = +24

in case of counter hit EX.RCF5
(14 + 27+ 3) - (14 + 0 + 0) = +27

I know rcf2 comboes into FA2 but i don’t remmeber if it is on meaty counterhit or just on counter hit, after crunching nimber first theory looks more promising, but in either case I don’t see EX.RCF5 comboing into FA2 outside of a counetr hit unless the 29 frames for level 2 FA listed on srk wiki is wrong.

2650

it works on any counter hit (im specificly speaking of counter hits of crouch tech in this case.) because I have canceled counter hit lp.RCF into FA Lv.2 during training mode.

Something has to be wrong

BTW, doesn’t a FA initiated by an FADC remove some of the start up frame as well?

2651

yeah it does as it happens whenever completion frame can be buffered, but i removed it already which gave the 29 (first active is necessary)

also “dash cancel” after FA gets a frame shorter than “out of the blue dash” but FA2 happens before the dash so we don’t have to take that into account the guy should be crumpling if we landed FA2.

would be better if there was no crocuh tech involved crouch tech means forward moving hurtbox, which means possibility of “meaty” attack, on a static hurtbox though RCF(last) cannot land meaty all 4 active frames are identical, so we 'd be sure to have a clean counterhit.

I wonder why we work on that though, it is good for our game mechanics knowledge but even if that works it is never going into my game, I am not spending 3 bubbles on +100 damage.

Maybee as a setup it could be intresting but in that case we couldn’t care less that it comboes since we are using it as a frame trap anyways.

2652

Well the set up provides an additional 230+ damage with one bubble. Well maybe more like 180 in AE, but you get the point. Its more feasible for me because im the type the reacts to and plays the situation, and does not pay attention to the player. he’s nothing but a sack of meat for the next 99 sec.

but come to think about it, I did land it a lot, but not often enough. maybe i was just scrapping the bottom of the barrel in desperation for something that was severely lacking.

If you think about it, all this stuff is found out because the character lacks the tools to win at that instant.

2653

So, anyone know if there is going to be any Vega on EVO? https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?hl=en_US&key=0AmLGJ-d2g9CJdE9fNnVhNlVYaE1DODFEN0JfYUhEVWc#gid=6

2654

Fancy is going to be there…no clue if she’ll play the claw. I’ll be wishing her luck

2655

Anyone know how many frames it takes for Piece of Mercury to become airborne and normal grab invincible? I’m assuming it’s 9

2656

probably 4…

2657

It’s 9 =[ I wish it was 4. 9 is too sloooow

2658

Just checking in,

what do most of you guys do after a blocked CH?

Right now I’m usually just NJing or teching, but I’m in training with random block on to try and see if I can backdash after a blocked hit

Not going too good. I either lose my charge anticipating the block, or just not backdash on hit at all, or until its too late and I would’ve already been grabbed/countered

2659

Depends the distance of the CH. If spaced right then NJ or backdash walk a bit forward Kara throw.

2660

Backdash is a viable option after CH, especially with the nerf in AE. But your distance and timing must be perfect. Max-distanced CH followed by backdash on block can usaully lead to your opponent whiffing a special move, since most people will immediately try to punish after a blocked CH. Even if they try to throw tech, your backdash will avoid that and then you can punish with st.HK or cr,mp into anything you like. The key is you must input your backdash before the animation of your CH ends. As soon Vega starts to fall from the hop of CH you can input your backdash and the second Vega’s feet hit the floor he will backdash, giving you split second invincibility. In Super, I would usually follow up a blocked CH with a throw, and it was almost always safe, even if the opponent teched, since CH was so good in Super. If the opponent really wasn’t on his game, I would even mix in a Scarlet Terror after a CH, and when they tried to throw tech after my CH, they ate a nice, crisp ST to the face, since it was made unthrowable in Super, But that is gone now, so i switched to more often than not backdashing after a max range CH. But just like anything else, you can’t abuse it, or you will be punished severely. Other options after blocked CH:

throw tech of course
good ol’ fashion block
Jump back HP
KKK flip then backdash

IMO (which is strictly my own) CH has been nerfed beyond freelance use in AE. Meaning, don’t throw it out unless you are sure it is worth the risk, because terrible things can happen if you CH at anything less than max range. With my style of play, there are very limited options after a blocked CH, so I have to pick and choose my battles when using it.