Vega (Claw) Thread

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
941

Nasty trick against Fei-Long:

If you do a very deep point blank roll so the final claw portion is the only thing that hits Fei on his wakeup, flamekick reversal will whiff against it since the hitting portion of it will hit behind Vega due to the hitbox of the last portion of his roll.

This gives you a free mixup.

If he tries to do a reversal simply throw him as he lands or slide and repeat the mixup.

If he does not he has to block the claw.

You have a 9 pixels longer throw range than him which means every wakeup roll turns into a 50/50 guessing game for Fei between doing reversal flamekick or not against your Throw or Fake Throw.

942

Yeah, Guile seems to be in the same situation with his somersault kick.

943

I could swear it depends on which side fei is on, as I’ve had that done on me on one side and I reversed it, and then on the other side I was unable too.

Are you absolutely positive it works on both sides, does corner play a role?

944

Both sides work it’s merely hard to time so whoever was doing it probably just screwed up.

945

I don’t think they were even aware of how BS it is.

946

Reversal Flying Kick (CW) will get you out of the meaty Rolling Claw, since all 3 are completely invincible on startup, and may even punish Claw, depends if he was crouch blocking or not. And even reversal throw will work sometimes, depends on how meaty the Rolling Claw was and whether or not Claw was airborne when Fei attempted the throw. This is a good offensive option for Claw, but there are other defensive options for Fei than simply a reversal Flame Kick.

Just about every other character though (Ryu, Ken, Guile) has to block, whereas Fei has 2 invincible on startup specials, so he gets some freedom instead of being locked down.

947

Neither are reliable answers.

Trying to reversal throw a meaty roll will lose you so many rounds.
Don’t even bother trying.

As for Chickenwing reversal.

I highly doubt it.

While this

<–

Has short invulnerability.

This portion of it will still be hit.

The :mk: and :hk: ones are even larger targets.

And even beyond that close range chickenwing kick has a tendency to go completely over Vega while he is crouching.
Giving Vega a free throw.

And furthermore while Vega is doing the roll he will also be holding down-back which means as this ends he has a flipkick ready to counter anything you try to do.

And even beyond that this is not something that works on every character such as you listed Ryu and Ken etc.

Ryu and Ken’s SRK will hit this easily.
It’s a matter of how far out the reversal hits from the main body of the character.

948

You’re right that if the Fei player does a Forward or Roundhouse Flying Kick, it will most likely be hit by the Rolling Claw or completely whiff and cross over Claw. However, the Short version is the most reliable one vs a meaty Rolling Claw, and doesn’t whiff over a crouching Claw as it doesn’t travel very far horizontally. But you’re right that if Claw has a Flipkick charged, it will beat any Flying Kick.

If you overlap Claw’s red hitbox and Fei’s head-vulnerable hitbox (Short version), I think Claw’s hitbox will be too low to hit Fei. And don’t forget that it’s the first few invincible frames that truly matter, since you are doing the Rolling Claw meaty. But yeah, it’s the Short Flying Kick that in my experience has escaped Claw’s lockdown the most reliably.

As for Ryu and Ken, I’ve had times where a reversal Shoryuken has beat a meaty Rolling Claw’s final hit, and other times I’ve been stuffed clean. I know it looks like Claw’s blue hitbox is close enough for a reversal Shoryuken to stuff it, but you could say the same thing about Fei’s Flame Kick. I think the last hit of the Rolling Claw has a strange property that allows it to stuff anti air specials, either randomly or consistently.

IMO reversal Shoryuken is only guaranteed to beat meaty Rolling Claw’s last hit if it’s completely invincible (Akuma or Ken’s Strong). Any other Shoryuken is not consistent enough to beat it in my experience. But of course I could be wrong.

949

There is nothing strange about it hitting or not.

The roll done in the hitbox image is simply not done point blank and therefore makes it look a lot easier to hit or not.

About reversal SRK, reversals imply hitting with the first few frames which are invulnerable.

They will always win this is all a matter of hitting or whiffing which is why it works against some characters and some not. You can’t actually “BEAT” a reversal SRK.

And still no Short chickenwing is not a reliable answer since it will simply result in you getting hit.

Either by the Roll itself or the flipkick.

I mean it’s up to you.

Would you rather Get hit.
or
Have a 50/50 chance of getting thrown ?

950

Somewhat off-topic, but sure you can beat a reversal SRK. You just need to have a meaty attack which red hitboxes overlap the SRK’s later vulnerable frames (F4 and on), without having blue bitboxes that overlap any of the SRK’s red hitboxes. Honda’s standing jab is such a move vs Ryu’s SRK. Do a meaty with it and it will beat the SRK.

I would guess that Vega’s standing MK is another one? (total theory fighter here)

About roll -> flipkick, it sounds like you would have very little time to react to the chickenwing. Is it really a practical reaction or do you need to guess the chickenwing?

951

Well sure you can make the SRK whiff against st.:mk: unsure if that is the same thing you mean with Honda.

But you can’t actually beat the Reveral SRK since it’s invulnerable.

Well you could if you clashed 2 invulnerable moves where the other invulnerable move was invulnerable longer.

On reacting it’s extremely easy to react to.

Since if Fei does a reversal you see the reversal message.

That means either flame kick or chickenwing.

Both will at that point lose to flipkick since their invulnerability is over.

If the reversal message does not show you go for the throw mixup.

952

[media=youtube]551ms1ZG5pQ[/media]
[media=youtube]bYTmC-1P_h8[/media]
[media=youtube]hvwgHfOyeNI[/media]
[media=youtube]N1bj7ECXYio[/media]
[media=youtube]n4L8fyxHXX0[/media]

Some footage recorded by Thelo.

I would love some critique on my Vega.

Also i got some help from S-Kill on IRC in regards to the Vega vs Honda matchup:

<Shari> Thanks for all the help. One last question: If Honda has lifelead and is in the corner what is the best way to approach him ?
<Shari> Also would it be okay if i posted what you said on the HDR part of the forum to help other Vega Players ?
<s-kill> hey
<s-kill> I would rather say something clear than random irc snippets
<s-kill> lol
<s-kill> anyway, a few things you should never/rarely do (obviously there are exceptions to almost all rules):
<Shari> I was thinking of linking the vid and then your comments on it but if you would rather just write something cohesive sure i appreciate all the help.
<s-kill> if you are both charging d/b across screen, never go off the far wall (the one nearest honda)
<s-kill> it’s a free counter for him
<s-kill> basically honda has no safe way to attack
<s-kill> vega has almost no safe ways to attack
<s-kill> hold on, sorry, too much stuff happening
<Shari> Haha no problem
<s-kill> right so Vega can sort-of go off the wall
<s-kill> he can also actually jump at Honda
<s-kill> you can either jump straight up and down in front of him
<s-kill> with st.forward/st.strong (don’t get too cute with that)
<s-kill> or jump at him with j fierce
<s-kill> but jump so you aren’t landing on top of him
<s-kill> you want the fierce aimed basically to land at his feet
<s-kill> basically it puts you out of the jab HB ownage zone
<s-kill> and the j fierce will trade/beat any other torpedo from there
<s-kill> if he gets hit, just combo into cr strong and run away
<s-kill> Honda has a terrible time trying to catch up with vega
<s-kill> basically it’s big advantage to whoever has the lead
<s-kill> (and of course is solid on their counters)
<s-kill> if you get a lead, you are just giving away an advantage if you attack
<s-kill> regardless of whether you’re vega or honda
<s-kill> well, Honda has plenty of setups that are worth pressing the advantage on
<s-kill> but yeah, if it’s single-hit, cross screen, sit on that lead
<s-kill> esp if you’re vega
<s-kill> since it’s harder for honda to come at you
<s-kill> you can also bait a lot of scrubs into HBing at you from across the screen
<s-kill> then either jump back and counter, or just be close and flipkick on reaction
<s-kill> that sounds hard, but it’s not actually, because you only need to look for one thing (headbutt)
<s-kill> and react just to that
<Shari> Okay and then how do you approach Honda when he has the lead ?
<s-kill> when it’s that narrow, even people with weak reactions like me can counter like a daigo
<s-kill> I usually prefer the jump hassling
<s-kill> it’s usually less risky than off the wall
<s-kill> but basically you’re in a very bad spot
<s-kill> honda vs anyone without a fireball (and a lead) is bad news
<s-kill> jumping usually causes Hondas to try buttflop, which does not work at all
<s-kill> free airthrow if you’re good, free medium attack otherwise
<s-kill> (vega’s airthrow is too hard)
<s-kill> moving around that much also semi sets up other dumb stuff, like a jab roll, etc.
<s-kill> but basically it’s all circus tricks
<Shari> Could you perhaps have a look at this one then [media=youtube]bYTmC-1P_h8[/media] From second round onwards i tried a more turtling approach to it
<s-kill> you can try and jump to the opposite side to void his charge
<s-kill> from the start?
<Shari> Second round of the first match
<s-kill> I’ll talk as I watch
<Shari> okay
<s-kill> you baited him to random HB
<s-kill> lol
<s-kill> good
<s-kill> this is how I know thelo is not a truly experienced honda
<s-kill> you basically never do that in this match except as last resort
<s-kill> anyway, after j fierce counter, you should jump away
<s-kill> you’re next to him as he recovers
<s-kill> dangerous opportunity for honda
<s-kill> you missed a free coutner when he did ANOTHER hb across screen, but no biggie
<Shari> Ye i was actually charged for super there but missed it
<s-kill> the “hands assault” from honda is reasonable play by thelo, but mostly bluff
<s-kill> you can counter in a variety of ways, even cr. strong or slide
<s-kill> tho they’re risky
<s-kill> as in, you need to be anticipating hands, then counter.
<s-kill> if you SEE hands, then think “ahh, hands–I should counter!” then he probably has enough time to stop hands and do something that could counter your attempted counter
<s-kill> so it’s immediately or don’t bother
<s-kill> anyway, hands are a bluff bc you can block that shit all day worst case
<s-kill> it never hits more than 1-2x from distance
<s-kill> if he uses it to set up buttflop, counter buttflop (it’s clean counter for vega)
<s-kill> if HB, same–free counter
<s-kill> if hands bother you, and you’re not feeling your counter, just jump away
<s-kill> Honda has essentially zero counters to Vega jumping away
<Shari> Anything else you can think of ?
s-kill> there’s a lot more little things, but the rest of that match looks standard enough
<s-kill> he desperately tries to create opportunities, gets hit by random walldives
<s-kill> walldive is still overall a plus for vega, but it can be too risky if you already have a lead
<Shari> So overall: Since the match is pretty much halfway decided by whoever gets lifelead first, and Vega has a “safer” way of attacking Honda it should be somewhat in his favor ?
<s-kill> it’s easier for Vega to lose if honda finds an opening
<s-kill> it’s a very even matchup overall
<s-kill> I am fine playing it as either
<s-kill> have no clear pref
<s-kill> maybe a little easier for vega, since he can play a little offense, instead of almost pure counter
<s-kill> also thelo should use fierce hands
<s-kill> much better
<s-kill> cr. forward to hide it’s coming
<s-kill> basically vega does NOT have a safe way to attack honda
<s-kill> he just has some semi-decent parlor tricks that can open doors
<s-kill> where honda has nearly none
<Shari> Ah so it’s not that he has a safe way but that he has a way of attacking at all ?
<s-kill> yeah, kinda
<s-kill> vega has options
<s-kill> none of them are very good, but they are at least non-loser options
<s-kill> honda has basically no non-loser options
<s-kill> but yeah, functionally it’s a pretty even fight
<Shari> Okay thanks for taking the time.

953

(I know I’m late!)

Are you saying it’s not possible because it’s too risky or you can’t do it at all?

I can’t comment on the Chickenwing. I’ll have to experiment with that, but I was able to reversal throw a meaty roll.

Thank heavens Fei has 4 throw buttons!

Yeah, what you specified certainly causes Flame Kick to whiff. It’s so annoying!

A Vega players was doing this to me and I was trying to figure out how to counter it, and I tried Reversal throw with all the buttons and chucked his pretty ass!

I’m confident that Vega is considered grounded at the end of the roll, but what about in the middle of it? When is he considered airborne?

954

Mainly cause of risk.

If you can do it consistently go for it.

955

Iirc, he alternated during the roll between airborne and grounded. Hell flamekick doesn’t work if anorexic just walks into fei. Dude needs to eat.

I generally can only beat a claw by muscling in usually taking alot of damage in the process. Claw dizzies easily, but hitting him/getting him to stay still is hard. If I recall cr.mp doesn’t doesn’t actually lose to flamekick, and can fei poke slide with anything other than flamekick?

956

cr.HP at max range can stuff slide.

You’ll tend to trade more though since you won’t know when it’s coming.

957

Probably most of the time, you can see the reference pip off the baseline in hitbox mode:
http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/vega/rollfierce.html

It’s pretty tight between the starting frames of the Short CW and the top hitting frames on the roll. It may turn out to be timing dependent.

958

:sad:

959

Vega get dizzied faster right?

So you trade in your favor!

Turn that frown upside down! :wink:

960

I can only trade if he sticks something out. Rekkas are never safe against claw either.