6421

Except Daigo did challenge his aerial shit. Daigo’s problem was dealing with Yun’s mixups, kept eating command grabs and not challenging anything Yun did on his face.

6422

Long story short the risk/reward for challenging Yun’s shit is in Yun’s favor.

Which is why SFV is nerfing dive kicks into the ground. Buttons will reign again.

6423

He challenged it with st.lk and jumping lp…not good enough.
You are absolutely right that Daigo hardly challenged anything when Kazunoko was in his grill, he just sat there and did nothing…which got him grabbed over and over and over. Eventually in the 3rd game of GF he started anti airing with uppercuts, going air to air with heavy attacks, and doing uppercuts when Kazunoko was in his grill. Which would have opened up a LOT of other opportunities for Daigo if he had made Kazunoko more wary of them.

Momochi is a player which shows perfectly how to play against Yun, ofcourse he is using Ken though, but a lot of stuff can be applied with other characters atleats to some extent.

6424

fixed

6425

I’ve not watched the match but how is he supposed to challenge given Yuns options? DP him ? A low damage reversal for a 200+ combo plus corner carry? This character just does that to you.

The only way you can keep Yun honest is to ironically, also jump around like a tard and make your movement screw with his own.

6426

This is part of why decapre is pretty good vs. him. you can jump back then spiral on reaction to a neutral jump and get 250ish damage.

6427

That’s exactly how it works.

Ryu in vanilla and super because daigo

Fei long/viper/yun in ae because fuudo, latif/wolfkrone, daigo

Akuma, Seth, cammy, viper in 2012 because infiltration/Tokido, poongko/dashio, xiao hai/kbad, latif/wolfkrone

And now rose, Ken, yun, evil ryu in ultra because luffy, momochi, kazunoko and daigo

And no one theorized these characters to be top tier before they were winning or placing in the money at legitimate majors until after they won because people either are to scared to have an opinion that isn’t backed by Japanese players or results, or aren’t that good at the game to see things before they happen.

The only exception is like yun in ultra because everyone saw the red focus potential, but even then the top tier yun hype still died on these forums before kazunoko won ceo and now capcup

And let’s be real here, the only reason why usf4 is considered the most balance version of sf4 isn’t because of the minor buffs and nerfs changes and delay wake up mechanic, it’s because now that the game has been out for so long, it has given enough time to develop all these top players. If the current skill level and top player base was taken back to vanilla or super I guarantee the “top tiers” would not look the same. All it takes is one strong talented mind to find diamonds in the rough to display the character like xian with gen in 2013. But not even the craziest tech and set play is what makes a character good, it’s the player in control vs his opponent. Why can hugos and giefs beat sagats at the high level. Why can daigo get 2nd place at Capcom cup without using any safe jumps, ambiguous cross ups/unblockables and just basic meaty/throw pressure on knockdowns and a solid footsies and fireball game in the neutral? How can kazunoko win capcom cup with Un-FADC-able DP’s and do so many on wake up and during the opponents block string pressure “like a scrub”. How did kazunoko land so many regular non invincible 10f command grabs? Etc etc

Let’s just be real here, if the characters were truly doing most the work, and winning was as easy as just “picking a top tier”, why is it the top players are always on top, and random people don’t just start winning tournaments by just picking top tier, and when new elite players come to light it’s because they are bred from having current elite players as training partners. My point is people don’t respect the players skill enough as much as they just conclude on character being the reason for success

6428

In early editions of the game maybe. Later editions AE - it was pretty damn obvious Fei was top considering he was extremely strong in Super.

People called Evil Ryu and Ken way early too before the game was even out. Rose isn’t top tier.

6429

yea Fei was top tier because fuudo won evolution. Just like after rose won evolution and was being put as top tier because “OMG her ultra 2 is broken and she gets 2 a round, her reflects let her out meter build every character, her normals are just designed to be good and out footsie automatically, best back dash it’s not punishable at all etc etc”, then Justin Wong and other players start picking her up and she’s getting placed really high in twitter tier lists, and then luffy stops winning tournaments left and right and her hype dies and you comment on srk one year later saying she’s not top tier anymore. Do you not see the cycle?

Sagat gets nerfed like every version
Still have multiple top Sagat players

Fei long gets nerfed, fuudo still top player

Ryu gets nerfed from vanilla to 2012 and daigo still won or made top 5 placings in several majors in that time.

Akuma gets nerfed, still multiple top Akuma players

Gief, really gief gets nerfed?, still multiple top Gief players

Seth gets nerfed to shit compared to 2012, poongko and dashio still winning majors

Guile I’m sooo sure deserved nerfs, still got top guile players

Sakura, viper, bison, strong capable characters who got buffs? Have lost their player representation or never really had the most elite player representation.

See a trend? fuck the character and tiers and give the players some credit. You think keoma got good because Abel is S tier. This guy is from brasil with almost no local scene, shitty online, almost no top player competition. You think the character wins for him or that he’s put the work in with all the vast resources available to learn this game and practiced who knows how many hours to get to the level to win a premier and make top 8 at the most stacked tournament in sf4 history

6430

People do give the players credit, but there are still realistic lists that apply. I mean let’s not pretend they don’t pick the best characters to give them the edge. There are just as many character loyalists as there are tier players and counter pickers.

I don’t think it’s as simple as saying " player skill" or " tier whoar" when in reality it’s probably a good mix of both.

On one side you’ve got Bonchan and the other you’ve got Xian. Some players are happy grinding , some are happy switching.

6431

@Highlandfireball kinda has a point though

I feel its actually a really good mix of both

6432

There are 2 facts with this game my friend.

  1. Every round starts at neutral
  2. You must press buttons to damage the opponent in order to win, and pressing buttons opens you to take damage

You can not deny these 2 principles, and if you observe High level play, the player who wins is almost always the one who can space them selves better then his opponent so that he can whiff punish and hopefully lead that into a momentum to mix them up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n1HNc4-xTtU

This is one of the best sets I have seen in sf4’s lifespan. On paper, Kens health and stun advantage, bigger throw range, quicker normals as well as more varied and further ranging normals and ambiguous jump options with his air tatsu, as well as having a reaction anti fireball ultra to aid in his weak fireball game should put this in Kens favor. But that’s all good on paper but you still need to press buttons to get that stuff to mean anything and that leaves you open to whiff punishment or counter hits or anti airs or jump ins etc if the opponent is out spacing you.

Tell me when you have seen someone dominantly out footsie momochi so bad that momochi gets so frustrated that he spams 3 or 4 step kicks back to back and then go for a gimmicky dp lvl red focus cancel after on block?

Player vs player my friend, no excuses

6433

The Point of some Tierlist is also the personal opinion.
Last time someone asked Daigo about Tiers he listed Cammy still top 5, no one else does this right now, because we have so many strong players with different strong characters now.

Cammy is still strong and can do what she did in AE2012.

Seth is still a strong character,even after all these nerfs.

E.Ryu is a good character, but has very little health.

Elena might be good, but I think people just haven’t figured out how to shut her down.

Rolento has a awesome offence,ones he gets knocked down he is basicly free.

In Ultra has it comes a lot more down to the Player and the MU.
Good player make worse characters look Top Tier, best example is Bonchan.
Or Luffy with Rose, Rose is realy good in Ultra, but still struggels against everything that can just stay in her face and chase her down the whole time.

Sometimes Tierlists are just a opinion and sometimes they’re a fact.
I think every tierlist in Ultra is just a opinion,otherwise we have ~22 characters in the top 10.

6434

Although your example is good, it showcases two characters that not only have counters for each other’s moves available, the characters and players themselves are both top end.

I could find a video of Daigo slaughtering Bonchan because Sagat doesn’t have the answers to reply, not through skill, through pure limitation.

Is your point that player skill above all else matters? At lower level I would agree, at the very top level I think the tier lists definitely provide edges. Whether the players can take advantage of that is another story. You can obviously train yourself to beat a direct opponent through training, ie Daigo vs infiltration.

I think though that you still need the character to function strongly in most areas. If Ibuki never wins a major , does that make her a bad pick?

6435

Tier lists are never fact. Take a look at ST, almost every year the top players sit down and do a comprehensive review of all the match ups and modify the tier lists if they feel things have changed. We’re talking about a game that’s decades old, extremely simplistic and straight forward and not nearly as many characters as any other street fighter after it. And yet almost every year or two the tier list changes, whether it be extremely minor or even major changes. Chun and DJ have gone from top tier to high tier, cammy has gone from complete ass to mid tier. Thawk has gone from worst character to best character etc etc. Tier lists are not facts at all and just opinions, and SRK, eventhubs, capcomunity, twitter and all these open forums that give people a voice have based their tier lists opinions solely on characters that are winning in tournaments or that Japanese players say who they think top 5 is and it’s pretty pathetic. My favorite was back when Nemo started to blow up a bit during the beginning of usf4 because daigo was his training partner and Nemo had the most BP in the arcades as well as his amazing offensive play with rolento. He immediately used that buzz to say that poison was a top 5 character (specifically 4th I think), and tons of people blindly just parroted that statement, the amount of poisons online went up and I even seen some players at locals start trying to use her just because a Japanese player said top 5. What ever ended up with that hype? Almost never see her online being played well, don’t see her at the locals anymore and at the high level, she’s a pocket character at best and has had less success out of all 5 new characters and arguably the worst of the 5

6436

I actually would like to see video of daigo slaughtering Bonchan not due to skill but because of pure limitation because I don’t believe there is any match up that one character can put his opponent into an inescapable situation due to character limitation and then loop it over and over till they die.

That’s not to say that hasn’t existed before like ST akuma fireball traps, but that character is banned for a reason.

But again, the 2 facts of the game are it always starts in neutral and that in some form or another, the hits in neutral come from footsies and it’s because the player was better at spacing.

In regards to if Ibuki never wins does that make her bad? Again I think almost if not all characters have the tools in neutral to beat any other character because the player with better spacing and understanding of footsies as well as the ability to read his opponent will win. There is no such thing as a bad character to me, just bad decisions. I think Ibuki is a good character with many tools and is plenty capable of winning a tournament against anyone, doesn’t take Ibuki to win a major for me to realize that. The most common parroted saying is that DJ is the worst or bottom 3 character in the game, and is limited so much there is no way he could win at a high level, yet a DJ qualified for Topanga a league…

6437

If you are playing a bad match up (Zangief vs Sagat say) and the advantaged character plays optimal spacing, punishes everything and takes advantages of your weak areas, you most definitely need a strong read or big mistake by the other player to take the advantage back. I’m not really sure how else to put that.

If you want to call big gambles skill then of course I’m fine with that, it doesn’t mean that Tier lists don’t exist though.

6438

Well we have seen plenty of zangief vs Sagat at the highest of levels. And I strongly disagree that “if played perfectly it should be 10-0” since

  1. round starts at neutral
    2)to get damage you potentially open your self to damage

I know for a fact that Sagat is going to need to use his stand round house as well as his fireballs in that match up. And there is no way Sagat can always be in perfect spacing to safely throw fireballs, have the ability to anti air all of giefs aerial options, use normals to counter and whiff punish and also not get cornered. Just by the mechanics of the game zangief will build ultra 2 and he will build EX meter and he will have the tools to get into ranges where Sagat doesn’t have entire control and then has to make decisions which zangief could counter. I know there are ranges where ultra 2 stocked zangief jumping is awkward to anti air without using a dp and it requires reading what type of jump option zangief uses, or that zangief with meter can get into range where he can react ex green hand through a fireball, or whiff punish a round house with jab buffer ex green hand, or that if he jumps in from this range he can punish a fireball thrown here.

There are spacings where Sagat is going to have to make some committed decisions against gief that could potentially be countered and if gief gets in its clearly not a 10-0 match up

6439

I can’t think of any truly unwinnable matchups in this game, but I can think of a lot of matchups where the risk-reward for most interactions is heavily skewed towards one side. That’s where the advantage-disadvantage-part comes in.

6440

Who’s talking about 10 nils though? It’s slight advantages to moderate advantages over larger sets will equal a number that represents the character either has an advantage or a disadvantage.

Thus - tier list was created.

Also your poison example above was before she got changed, she could well have been top 5. Look at Elena now.

This is a circular debate though, so there’s not much point in dragging it on. If you think Blanka has as much advantage/tools/magical fairy dust as Evil Ryu at high level against varied opponents in short sets then go for your life.