USF4 Ken Improvement Thread (+EVO Result)

superyo1000 · 2010-02-07T22:48:25.000Z

G77:

I agree with Joon on this.

Ken’s DP was always superior to Ryu’s yet in SF4 it is well below almost every other Shoto. I mean, even Dan’s is a safer AA!!

Here’s my 2 cents on what Ken needs in SSF4:

Faster movement speed
+2 on EX tatsu
+1 on LK tatsu ON BLOCK (This gives Ken a much needed SAFE special)
Make Ken’s Fierce DP the highest priority DP (as it has been historically. Highest priority, highest risk, that’s how Ken rolls!!)

Fixing Ken’s DP would, for me, sort out the problems with his ultra automatically. Higher priority would mean more counterhits and easier AA Fierce DP’s all leading to more Full Ultra’s. IMHO the only DP’s that should beat Ken’s Fierce DP should be EX DP’s and then Ken’s EX DP should beat EVERYTHING.

If Ken is truly a Rushdown character, he needs one of 3 things.

Either a special that is safe on block ala Rufus
A scary mix-up/pressure game ala Cammy
Easier normal links to aid in hit confirming to unsafe specials.

Ken currently has NONE of these. The only reason he is percieved to be a rushdown character IMHO is that he literally HAS to get in people’s faces to do any damage at all. He is basically a rushdown character because the rest of his game sucks more.

Not one of Ken’s specials is TRULY safe as even a slightly wrong spaced fireball can be punished, yet his USEFUL normal links are harder to pull off than half the cast.

I would LOVE to see maybe one or 2 of the following changes for Ken to solidify his rushdown style.

Make his cr.lp, cr.fp link as easy as Sakura’s is.
Give him his Crazy Kicks and make at least 1 version safe on block.
Make his lp DP safe on block.

Finally, before I sign out, I feel like the Ken’s Dragon Punches are all messed up! My thoughts on how they SHOULD function are this:

lp DP - Lowest risk, lowest reward. Low damage but safe on block. Always knocks down on hit but is a poor anti air and will lose to jump ins. Main purpose is to finish a safe block string or punish telegraphed pokes.

mp DP - Medium risk, medium reward. Moderate damage and ALWAYS knocks down on hit regardless of which part hits. Slightly more damage than the lp version and only good at AA if done early like Ken’s curerent lp version.

fp DP - Big risk, big reward. Best AA and invincible throughout first half of upward motion. Only knocks down if the first 2 hits connect, making it risky if done at the wrong range. But it would become the favoured DP for anti-air. All it’s current properties for juggling into Ultra would remain the same as in Vanilla SF4.

ex DP - The BEST DP of all shotos. Massive Risk, massive reward. Invulnerable throughout full upward motion. Damage remain the same, knockdown properties same, start-up remain same (5 frames, so it can be safe jumped) and it shouldn’t link to full ultra.

Anywho, what do you think?

Peace,

G.

good suggestion but I disagree with one part. dont believe it should be best of shotos. It just should be better the ryu’s and sagats. Akuma I believe should be better. Other then that good suggestions

G77 · 2010-02-07T22:55:05.000Z

superyo1000:

good suggestion but I disagree with one part. dont believe it should be best of shotos. It just should be better the ryu’s and sagats. Akuma I believe should be better. Other then that good suggestions

My thoughts are though that because Ken’s DP has such a huge ARC on it’s upward swing, even though his DP would be the most invulnerable it would not be the best DP for escaping wake-up pressure.

I felt that this kinda suited Ken’s playstyle, loves attacking but doesn’t really like to play defensively. Akuma, and Ryu would have slightly less straight up power, but still retain their composure during wake-up cross-up pressure as they can simply auto-correct DP for the win.

So basically what I’m saying is that if Ken and another Shoto are toe to toe, Ken’s DP would rule, but if using it to escape the wake-up game, Ken is still gonna come off worse as the arc on his jump makes it less reliable against cross-up shenanigans.

Thoughts people?

G.

G77 · 2010-02-07T23:00:50.000Z

Don’t get me wrong though. I don’t hate the other Shotos. I like each character to have their own “thing.”

Ken’s thing was always the ultimate DP
Ryu’s thing was always the best Fireball
Sagat’s was always the most power
Akuma’s was always the most options

I know it’s not quite as straight forward as that, but in general, that’s the way I saw it. Ken was the showman with the great offence. Ryu the purist, Sagat the powerhouse and Akuma the mix-up nutter!!

G.

raeli · 2010-02-08T00:05:02.000Z

what is all this roleplay shit? ken has never had the best dragon punch in any game, except for ST and that’s just because of jab dp being almost completely safe.

ken needs a better dragonpunch, but not because of some bullshit “IT HAS FAYRE SO ITZ BETTER CUZ OF FIYAH”

he needs a better DP because of how bullshitawful mp and fp are compared to ryu/akuma

Especially he’ll never get the full damage off of one of his AA dps except jab (which does no damage) because they’re all multiple hits. and two of 'em can be safe jumped.

it’s not like sagat where ken has enough damage and health and options to have a safe-jumpable DP and still be good.

goddamn.

DHEvil · 2010-02-08T00:11:38.000Z

So let me get this straight… Ken should have a worse FB, worse tatsu AND worse dp? Fuck that ish.

raeli · 2010-02-08T00:35:28.000Z

DHEvil:

So let me get this straight… Ken should have a worse FB, worse tatsu AND worse dp? Fuck that ish.

I’m saying that their retarded reasoning is flawed. Also, Ken’s Tatsu is only worse than Akuma’s… Shave off a couple frames and I’d be tempted to take it over Akuma’s.

Ken needs a better DP and his Tatsu is subjective (should be even on hit, ex + frames) but honestly their retarded reasoning for why these changes need to be made are mind numbing. Kind of like the retards in here who go “Ken shouldn’t have a roll or his CVS2 wheel kick because those are Abel’s moves!” Let’s be straight here… Abel ganked and got upgraded moves of a LOT of ken’s shit… stepkick, wheel kick, roll, overhead, I could go on and on. If anything, Abel is the thief… Having two characters having a roll wouldn’t be bad design at all, they’re both rushdown FFS and their properties on the roll could be entirely different.

Killer_Jigglypuff · 2010-02-08T00:54:37.000Z

Seems as though more and more threads are being hit with people who “know” stuff about the game now. Hmm…

Coth_X · 2010-02-08T01:11:30.000Z

raeli:

what is all this roleplay shit? ken has never had the best dragon punch in any game, except for ST and that’s just because of jab dp being almost completely safe.

ken needs a better dragonpunch, but not because of some bullshit “IT HAS FAYRE SO ITZ BETTER CUZ OF FIYAH”

he needs a better DP because of how bullshitawful mp and fp are compared to ryu/akuma

Especially he’ll never get the full damage off of one of his AA dps except jab (which does no damage) because they’re all multiple hits. and two of 'em can be safe jumped.

it’s not like sagat where ken has enough damage and health and options to have a safe-jumpable DP and still be good.

goddamn.

Ken’s ST hp srk was also better in that game since he was one of 2 characters in that game you couldn’t safe jump. Also, the arc on his srks was better in the older games but was reduced by the time of ST.

Diet · 2010-02-08T01:14:34.000Z

I dont know about the rest of you ken users, but I think his tatsu/Ex tatsu should be changed to knockdown or give some space between you and the opponent after it ends. After a combo ending in the ex tatsu I’m always stuck between what to do: are they going to do a lk or lp so I should shoryu? are they going to grab so I should tech? are they going to block so I should grab? I think it’s a horrible guessing game to play. But maybe its just me idk.

raeli · 2010-02-08T01:41:44.000Z

Diet:

I dont know about the rest of you ken users, but I think his tatsu/Ex tatsu should be changed to knockdown or give some space between you and the opponent after it ends. After a combo ending in the ex tatsu I’m always stuck between what to do: are they going to do a lk or lp so I should shoryu? are they going to grab so I should tech? are they going to block so I should grab? I think it’s a horrible guessing game to play. But maybe its just me idk.

You don’t understand how Ken works. So it isn’t just you in here, but you should still shut up.

raeli · 2010-02-08T01:41:59.000Z

Diet:

I dont know about the rest of you ken users, but I think his tatsu/Ex tatsu should be changed to knockdown or give some space between you and the opponent after it ends. After a combo ending in the ex tatsu I’m always stuck between what to do: are they going to do a lk or lp so I should shoryu? are they going to grab so I should tech? are they going to block so I should grab? I think it’s a horrible guessing game to play. But maybe its just me idk.

You don’t understand how Ken works. So it isn’t just you in here, but you should still shut up.

Cosine · 2010-02-08T03:53:55.000Z

Diet:

I dont know about the rest of you ken users, but I think his tatsu/Ex tatsu should be changed to knockdown or give some space between you and the opponent after it ends. After a combo ending in the ex tatsu I’m always stuck between what to do: are they going to do a lk or lp so I should shoryu? are they going to grab so I should tech? are they going to block so I should grab? I think it’s a horrible guessing game to play. But maybe its just me idk.

Errr? A big portion of kens game is the fact that you ARE close to them after hitting with a tatsu combo so that you can continue his rushdown shenanigan. The only thing I want is more +frames on hit. +1 for an EX tatsu just doesn’t cut it.

Stay_Crispy · 2010-02-08T04:53:01.000Z

I could see +2 after an EX tatsu, but +3 would be just retarded. That would be a free HP SRK, cr.LP/cr.LK (which could lead to ANYTHING). He’d be able to do shit like EX tatsu>cr.LK>EX tatsu>cr.LK>EX tatsu>cr.LK>EX tatsu>HP SRK

Cosine · 2010-02-08T06:13:09.000Z

Yeah +2 would be fine in my opinion for an EX tatsu, I don’t like how you’re on negative frames for a HK tatsu. I feel you should be either +1 or 0 on hit.

That combo wouldn’t even do that much damage due to scaling if it were to be +3, I mean sakura can already combo loop with her hurricane kick in a similar fashion.

superyo1000 · 2010-02-08T06:26:01.000Z

Cosine:

Yeah +2 would be fine in my opinion for an EX tatsu, I don’t like how you’re on negative frames for a HK tatsu. I feel you should be either +1 or 0 on hit.

That combo wouldn’t even do that much damage due to scaling if it were to be +3, I mean sakura can already combo loop with her hurricane kick in a similar fashion.

true but I like the -1 because of this

ex tatus to ultra…virtually impossible since opponent is still in hit stun so if you ultra afterwards the ultra freeze warns them and the can correct what they where going to do.

tatsu to ultra…works since the button imput has registered and thier move has been activated.

this is obviously a risk no matter what but just saying

sure you can delay your ultra input but thats harder done then said

Cosine · 2010-02-08T06:41:42.000Z

You can still try that on neutral frame advantage. I prefer it to be +frames though because i just prefer to be able to continue attacking a bit more freely than sometimes having to think on the defensive after hit confirming a HK tatsu combo.

superyo1000 · 2010-02-08T06:46:52.000Z

Cosine:

You can still try that on neutral frame advantage. I prefer it to be +frames though because i just prefer to be able to continue attacking a bit more freely than sometimes having to think on the defensive after hit confirming a HK tatsu combo.

true…so I guess i would like HK tatsu no better then neutral frames

Spycarnegy · 2010-02-08T06:47:26.000Z

Oh u mean ex loops like rogs loops :D? Hahaha but yeah lol raelis hitting it on the money for u niggas

robotic_elf · 2010-02-08T07:09:48.000Z

raeli:

Especially he’ll never get the full damage off of one of his AA dps except jab (which does no damage) because they’re all multiple hits. and two of 'em can be safe jumped.

Actually one hit srks do less damage later on, so early srks tend to do the same amount of damage either way. I don’t know where the change point is though, so I don’t know how early they have to be to get the lessor damage.

Cosine:

Yeah +2 would be fine in my opinion for an EX tatsu, I don’t like how you’re on negative frames for a HK tatsu. I feel you should be either +1 or 0 on hit.

That combo wouldn’t even do that much damage due to scaling if it were to be +3, I mean sakura can already combo loop with her hurricane kick in a similar fashion.

Sakura’s EX tatsu does 125, Ken’s does 210. Sakura’s cp.hp xx lk tatsu <insert middle part> into EX tatsu -> reset combo does around 300, maybe 400 depending on spacing and character and how ballsy you’re feeling, Ken’s cl.hk -> EX tatsu already does 320 damage, just adding a fierce srk on the end is going to make it 430 dmg, and 610 stun, cl hk xx EX tatsu, cr jab xx EX tastsu, fp srk would do 575 damage and 785 stun. With a knock down and a crossup setup.

Note that you might even be able to keep going, although at this point you’d be doing it for the stun, not the damage.

SFighterlove · 2010-02-08T08:22:26.000Z

Has there been any footage of ken FADCing into his II Ultra?