Did you use red focus at all? Fei Longs rekka doesn’t armor break they normally spam it because its safe on block and can hit mutiple times.
Remember Fei Long is also -5 on FADC and you can now tick throw him now because his cr.LK now starts up in 4 frames… DO NOT use Kara throw you will lose to it.
Also, Delayed wake up in the mod is 19 frames. Which is wrong. Its 11 frames (Ken’s standing jab total frame count) which would lead to some interesting setups
Fs.MP > cr.HK > whiff s.LP > FakeThunderKick to:
Option 1:
If you see Fei Long getting up during the FTK animation he didn’t delay his wake up, you can go for a cr.LK since he will likely want to avoid an overhead attack which if you release it’s +0 on block.
Option 2:
If he’s still grounded it’s delayed and you can jump towards with MK
He might get ballsy and punish your overhead with a rising dragon kick. That is actually a read that’s not any different than someone guessing when you’re going to cr.HK, or poke with a step kick.
Your best bet is to alternate between TK, FTK and cr.LK on his standard wake up. If you do FTK > nothing you can block his Rising dragon kick and get a free punish.
In terms of delayed Focus Back Dash and Focus Back Dash these can be OS’d.
Also
Did you use this on an opponent that was rising or awake? If he was still rising after a sweep he shouldn’t have time to reversal it.
Tarek
5263
So he came over again and we played like 30 games this time. So i used red focus alot this time, it worked the first couple of matches because he wasn’t used to it and didn’t expect it but after he adapted he would either jump forward and grab me or he would use chicken wing when his close to me. My friend is definitely no scrub and has very good reactions and adapts quikly. So i found it wasn’t worth burning two meters for a chance of landing the red focus and kens focus attack is not so great aswell (especially when compared to fei who can hit me from ranges you think is going to whiff).
The fact that the delayed wake up in the mod is 19 frames and not 11 can possibly change things but i wont know until i try it i guess.
But either way in ae2012 when i would forward throw Fei i would always cross him up with an ambiguous jump light kick, because if he uppercuts it whiffs and if he backdashes i can option select with a sweep. His only chance was me not predicting an ex chicken wing. But i literally had a 50/50 success rate since he can’t tell which way im going to land. This seems to be soo much harder to do in Ultra and is definitely a big hit for Ken. But again i wont know for sure until i play around with the proper DWU.
Note a deal we made during these games is that we would avoid shoryu fadc forward during blockstrings and when getting up and just assume it was -5 so we can adapt and see other options. So i tried using the TK, FTK, cr lk combination and to be honest it just felt gimmicky, after a few matches he found a solution to it. All he had to do was backdash or he would flame kick fadc backdash. Fei longs fadc backdash unlike Kens is 100% safe i tried using step kick, ex tatsu, ex hadoken, super and ultra 2 and he blocked everything successfully i couldn’t punish it and if i did the same thing all he had to do was ultra me lol. It really p***ed me off his backdash is soo good.
And when it comes to using his kara throw mix up its definitely alot harder to do on Fei then say Ryu. Fei’s cr mp is soo good it beats me easily if im not frame perfect.
So ye in conclusion he won like 18 games out of 30 i had to rely on footsies and smartplay to get my wins. I agree fei is definately nerfed when compared to the other cast but definitely not against Ken.
I feel the old tools Ken had like ex air tastucopter and shoryu fadc being able to cancel on 2nd hit on block and not being -5 plus the no DWU are greater then these current buffs. Well for the Fei match up anyway.
I think part of the problem is that Fei Long beats Ken in the neutral game, especially in AE2012. Once DWU timings are set and done you should have a better idea of what type of setups still work and which ones dont. C
ross ups, Fake Cross Up, Ambigious etc etc should all work still in theory. Vortex definitely should not as that was their solution for eliminating vortex. This is why they set wake up to 11 frames.
Fei Long’s back dash is not that good. You can OS punish it with U1 which has bad range…
So if the dp’s changes are universal then ken tatsu game will be a lot better after it hits. Yes or not really?
Joutai
5266
It would be better if you’re guessing an uppercut and block. Not so much if you were going to try to hit their DP airborne with your own DP for an FADC into U1.
First hit or second hit or both?
G77
5268
@Tarek
You’re making it sound like your buddy has the best reflexes in the world but I think you’ve helped him out by over simplifying his responses.
If he was mashing ultra every time you fadc a DP, all you need to do is forward dash. Fei’s ultra is 10 frames start up so you’ll be perfectly safe if that’s his go to punish. The fact is that all Fei’s specials are 5 frame start up or slower so a smart Fei is never really going to respond with Rekka or Ultra and probably not even his Flame kick either because all those options could possibly end up making him lose health (basically they are all a gamble) so the safe bet is just stick out a crouching light attack. I can’t believe he has the reflexes to see what direction you were dashing in to respond correctly and I’d guess he was just making his decision from the blocked DP.
So in summary:
Raw ultra loses to fadc forward dash and results in max punish or raw ultra punish for Ken.
Rekka will be blocked if Ken fadc forward dashes as its 7 frame start up and at point blank range I think Ken can punish this with a reversal DP?
Flame kick whiffs on fadc backdash for max punish by Ken and is a 1 frame reversal on fadc forward dash which, although not hard, it’s still tough to do when trying to determine which direction Ken is going to dash.
Safest option for Fei is to be patient and stick out a light attack and go for a hit confirm and once they realise this, Ken can then start to let the focus attack rip and possibly get crumple state or at the very least, reset back to where we used to be (-2 after a blocked or hit lv 1 focus) which is totally safe (against Fei) anyway.
We’ll just have to wait and see how this all plays out anyway. In the Fel match up, I would guess that Kens faster walk speed and sweep are probably going to help this match up a lot. Mashing DP was always a bad idea against Fei anyway because of his backdash.
Peace,
G.
Joutai
5269
You can FADC the second hit though.
Which is why he can Light Tatsu > EX DP xx FADC U1 in the corner :3
G77
5270
Don’t know what I was doing wrong then. Didn’t seem to hit twice against a grounded blocking opponent…
I’ll double check when I get a chance…
Either hit of Ryu’s ex dp leaves him at -1 after fadc forward dash currently. So really, it makes sense not to allow 2 hits as all he’s doing is giving his opponent more time to react…
Peace,
G.
Tarek
5271
Ye i know that all i had to do was dash forward but as i said in the above post we both agreed not to dash forward after a fadc so we can see other options and how our gameplay would change. So these matches were not 100% proper it was just to give us ideas about the changes, so its more of an experiment.
I havn’t tested this yet but after an fadc i think fei may be able to option select cr lk into ultra. So if i dash forward he will punish or if i backdash he can ultra. Assuming that OS works in that case i can let lv 1 focus rip but the odds are still in his favour. Where as in AE2012 its in our favour, but again i need to test this in the lab i could be wrong. IMO I feel that if they are going to keep fadc -5 they should atleast give Ken a better backdash so he can use it to be safe instead of having to gamble.
Ye i definitely agree with you about the DWU until i see the proper version i wont know for sure. As for Fei’s backdash i was referring to when he does flame kick fadc backdash during blockstrings or on wake up he is 100% safe, test it in training mode yourself.
But ye thanks guys for your opinions
Ken will be pretty good with the double ultra.
With the up for U1, the shoryu fadc shinryuken (75%) will be between 320-330. (like ssF4 ae 2K12).
And Ultra 2 will be better than ever.
If we choose the Wultra option, i think we can use ultra 2 or 1 in each round, to combo or to punish.
A ken with less damage but many more option.
what’s your opinion?
I dont think ill be using double ultra much since right now u2 is looking superior in almost all matchups with the dp fadc nerf landing counterhit f.srk into u1 is pretty much gone and with delayed wakeup one of the better things of current u1 will be nerfed which is the strong setups afterwards
Given the changes he’s getting in Ultra, you’re still going to be choosing one or the other but with the buffs to his U2 there is no reason you shouldn’t use it against projectile characters. It punishes much better now as the first few frames has him moving forward faster so there is limited safe ranges for spamming projectiles.
With regards to Ultra 1, sure it sucks that CH > Ultra 1is now incredibly risky. But the damage difference should still make it worthwhile since comboing into it is better than now (330 for fake ultra instead of 270) and it’s still a better raw punish than Ultra 2.
If they keep the universal nerf on dp FADC, they should make U1 hitting with full animation after 2nd hit of h.dp regardless of CH or not and adjust the damage like 450-470 for h.dp 2nd hit fadc > U1 full animation. Getting 2nd hit FADC in USF4 is more risky than fishing CH in AE2012 outside of combo. Inside a combo, damage scaling will be enough for making it not overpowered.
In short :
- You want a safe way to dp FADC > U1? Use m.dp FACD > short animated U1 which should be easy to react
- You succeed in FADC’ing the 2nd hit of h.dp? then go for full animated U1 as a reward, damage scaled inside a combo however.
What do you think about this?
non counter hit srk fadc full u1 is too strong also m.dp fadc will also be -5
Full Ultra 1 is one of the most damaging ultras in the game, even with damage scaling it’s too easy to hit confirm it in a combo for the damage you get. 330 is fair, anything over 400 is crazy. The way it is now, U1 will do about as much damage as Ryu’s (maybe slightly less) in combos while still been able to do massive amounts of damage to crumbled opponents. That’s already pretty good in my book, since U1 is almost guaranteed to hit once a round in one form or another.
Ultra 2 is hard to link into but with enough practice it can become more useful than U1. You can link to it without meter off of a standing jab, it does more damage inside combos, it punishes projectiles and it has a faster start up so it’s better for raw punishes.
G77
5278
I think U1 still has potential.
cr.lk, cr.lp, fierce DP, fadc, U1 is going to be just under 400 damage total which is good damage for 2 bars off a cr.lk confirm.
For 3 bars, Ken can do:
cr.lk, cr.lp, fierce DP, red focus attack lvl 1(crumple state) full U1.
Not sure what the damage on that will be but it’'ll be well over 400. I’m guessing it’ll be approx 450 to 500ish (just going on memory and maths in my head right now).
So damage wise:
Hit confirm to U2, 400+ with 2 bar depending on length of combo.
Hit confirm to U1, 390 with 2 bar, 450+ with 3 bar.
I think red focus will help U1 a lot.
I still think there might be a few changes still to go that we are yet to see. I like the fadc -5, I hope it stays (and this is coming from a Ken player!) It would be nice to see Ken get full U1 after ex DP fadc (like Ryu’s metsu shoryuken) but the damage and meter will pretty much be the same as just using the ex red focus attack lvl 1 crumple combo.
Don’t count U1 or W ultra out just yet!!
Peace,
G.
My point was that m.dp is a guaranteed launcher, you can react to it and decide if you hold focus a bit and wanna forward DC on hit, or let go the focus attack and back DC on block, which will not be the case of h.dp.
I’ve just realized that if you wanna make non CH hp dp > full U1 not damaging inside combo, U1 damage alone must be nerfed hard. That will be a deal breaker.
3 bars with Ken? He relies so much on ex tatsu… but it can be useful for finishing the match.
They can give us the -5 FADC but don’t take our 2nd on block, i still wanna fish for CH full U1;(
Another possibility for not making CH setup too risky is keeping U1 the way it is in the ultra changelog and making m.dp FADC +3 on hit and h.dp launch on 1st hit? They might need to enlarge m.dp hitbox a bit forward however…
Even if ex air tatsu is nerfed, you have always normal air tatsu for escape.
Ok it’s punishable but it’s far better than ryu’s air tatsu.
When you are in the corner it’s a free solution, even if it’s far from ex air tatsu.
Time to training a bit more for kara air tatsu, seems the best way to escape for now.
But capcom is not sure to keep the ex tatsu nerf, so keep the faith bro.
All i need right now it’s a safe TC, mp shoryu with a bigger arc, hk tatsu with 200-220 damages and a FTK like sfXtekken (cancelable) to help with the new DWU.
I’m positive with the nerfs, cause i think ken will have some compensation in the final lock test.
I’m happy ken keep kara throw with the new walk speed.
And with FarMP>Sweep or FarMP>U2, ken will have a better zoning game.
Yeah, ex red focus will help with allot of Ultras that are harder to link into. Still, what sets U2 apart is that you can hit confirm it without meter. A close jab, a cl st mk or a far st mp will do nicely. It does require good and consistent execution though, but it’s an important advantage, not many characters can confirm and link into Ultra without meter.
