USF4 Ken Improvement Thread (+EVO Result)

[JoontheBaboon]

Anyone say anything about kara ultra 2 yet? It’s pretty hard with the mk but you can just kara rh to the other 2 kicks really easily. It seems really helpful for going through fireballs and helping combos but I don’t have it down pat yet.

You can kara lk+mk into rh for the mk kara but it’s really awkward for my fingers. Thinking of using the thumb and index for the first two might actually be easier but I haven’t really tried that out yet.

I think that when the kara ultra 2 gets perfected you’ll be able to do things like c.lk, c.lp, c.mk > ex.fb > fadc > ultra 2 without whiffing even on crouching opponents. Probably even better on a normal fb because it has less pushback.

Just posting it right now so someone better than me can try and get their hands on this.

I remember Lilsicx66 mentioning this. It’s really awkward to Kara U2 with Step Kick. I haven’t found any use of it yet. I have enough trouble trying to U2 Ryu’s FB around Ken’s FS. HK range lol.

I remember seeing that I did

:r::3k:
:r::mk:

In training but I don’t remember if it actually kara’d or not. All I know was that the input was pretty easy, whereas I thought it’d be more difficult because of going from one kick button to all three in quick succession. So, I will have to try it out more. I’m sure f.HK~3k button would be easier. However, I only use the 6 button arcade standard on principle, so that’s a no go for me, but I’ll at least try it out too. But yes, that’s already been proposed to deal with crouchers who end up too far way, as well as dealing with fireballs (I know I love Chun-Li’s dash-ultra to punish fireballs). I’m not sure that anyone has really implemented it in their game though.

When you say crouchers who end up too far away, do you mean after FB > FADC?

Surely Kara’ing U2 will add 3 frames to the start up? Thus making it a 10 frame start up, slower than U1 and thus unable to combo?

I really have no idea because I have soooo much trouble FADC’ing after fireballs that, for me, U2 feels like a 1 or 2 frame link after a standard fireball. I tend to HAVE to use an EX fireball to make it a reliable combo, and even then…ugh.

Exactly. People don’t realize this, but C. MK > FB > FADC > U2 is a 1-frame link. I found this out by trying C. MK > FB > FADC > Sweep. It’s not possible unless you do it at the very tip. If you set it up like this, C. MK > FB > FADC > U2 becomes a 2-frame link but you risk making U2 whiff.

I’m using a 6 button stick too, it just feels really weird putting your middle finger down first then simultaneously doing index and ring. It feels a lot more fluid going ring then the other two. I was doing combos in training with the kara so it is possible, I was mostly doing it with the ex fb because that’s the one thats easier for me. I did it a couple times with the normal fb, but the timings really weird, I usually tap 3k a couple times when I combo that so kara’ing it is completely new to me.

It does seem to make j.fp/j.mk > c.lp > c.mk > ex.fb > fadc > ultra 2 a lot more reliable on crouching chars. It also makes anti air lp.srk > ultra 2 a little bit easier, but still completely unreliable.

I totally didn’t think about the frame addition but it still does work.

edit: hey g77 i recommend practicing a lot with ex.fb > fadc > ultra 2 first to get your fingers used to the motion. I thought non ex fb > fadc > ultra 2 was downright impossible at first but after getting really used to ex it’s not really THAT bad.

Really? I need to try this.

[Blaise]

When you say crouchers who end up too far away, do you mean after FB > FADC?

Yeah.

I didn’t know it was a 1 frame link though. I always found the FB to ultra pretty easy, I never felt the window to land the ultra was so small. I guess they’d be no point in trying to kara it then. What about EX FB FADC Ultra? 2 framer?

BTW, how’d you do at WNF last night? You going there more often?

[JoontheBaboon]

Yeah.

I didn’t know it was a 1 frame link though. I always found the FB to ultra pretty easy, I never felt the window to land the ultra was so small. I guess they’d be no point in trying to kara it then. What about EX FB FADC Ultra? 2 framer?

BTW, how’d you do at WNF last night? You going there more often?

I see. It’s easy because you have a lot of time to confirm C. MK > FB > FADC and buffer double QCF to U2, but bshock said he was able to Kara U2 so maybe I’m wrong.

I think EX FB > FADC > U2 is at least 3-frame link. It’s really easy.

I was in Station A. I lost to OnlineTony213 and Richard Nguyen. Were you there?

[Blaise]

Nah, it’s too far for me, I live in central california.

Anyhow, I’m gonna hit the lab to see what I can do before I hit the sack.

[bshock]

Yeah I don’t think I ever got the normal fb > fadc > kara ultra 2 to work, I guess the frame data doesn’t lie. I didn’t know it was a one frame link either, that’s pretty ridiculous. But I do distinctly remember it working after ex, input display and a small step forward while still connecting proved it. You can try it out yourself it’s really not that bad. In some cases you can do like c.lp > c.lp > c.mk > ex.fb > fadc > kara ultra 2 on crouchers but i think you have to be pretty lucky. I might implement this into my gameplay since I already kara shoryuken for combos to make it easier.

Anyone else notice that crossup mk > c.lp > c.hp whiffs on like a lot of characters, if you hit them from the front it works but not crossup. It’s so frustrating trying to force stand to try and get a proper ambiguous setup for u2. I’ll try check crossup mk > c.lp > c.mk > ex.fb > fadc > kara u2 on all the characters crouching tomorrow to see if it’s reliable. Slow internet connection where I am right now so all I really have is training mode.

Is there a difference in the amount of frames a kara adds to a move between mk and rh. I assume it’s different, I would think mk adds more because it goes further, but I’m just not sure.

[Tatsumaki_12]

how do you kara either ultras?

[bshock]

how do you kara either ultras?

For U1, kara from rh, I move my thumb all the way to the right then do 3p (can’t do mk because kara focus will come out)
For U2, kara from rh, hit your ring finger on rh first and keep it held then do the other two kicks (mk is really weird)

[JoontheBaboon]

Nah, it’s too far for me, I live in central california.

Anyhow, I’m gonna hit the lab to see what I can do before I hit the sack.

I see. Alright, let us know if you find anything.

Yeah I don’t think I ever got the normal fb > fadc > kara ultra 2 to work, I guess the frame data doesn’t lie. I didn’t know it was a one frame link either, that’s pretty ridiculous. But I do distinctly remember it working after ex, input display and a small step forward while still connecting proved it. You can try it out yourself it’s really not that bad. In some cases you can do like c.lp > c.lp > c.mk > ex.fb > fadc > kara ultra 2 on crouchers but i think you have to be pretty lucky. I might implement this into my gameplay since I already kara shoryuken for combos to make it easier.

Anyone else notice that crossup mk > c.lp > c.hp whiffs on like a lot of characters, if you hit them from the front it works but not crossup. It’s so frustrating trying to force stand to try and get a proper ambiguous setup for u2. I’ll try check crossup mk > c.lp > c.mk > ex.fb > fadc > kara u2 on all the characters crouching tomorrow to see if it’s reliable. Slow internet connection where I am right now so all I really have is training mode.

Is there a difference in the amount of frames a kara adds to a move between mk and rh. I assume it’s different, I would think mk adds more because it goes further, but I’m just not sure.

Definitely. With EX FB, you can Kara U2 but I personally don’t like to use it because it uses 3 bars.

I never had a problem with cross-up MK > C. LP > C. HP.

There isn’t a difference in the amount of frames Kara adds between F+MK and F+HK. They’re both cancellable from 1st~3rd frame, but F+MK gives you more range.

[Blaise]

Still inconclusive as of yet. I don’t even know if I kara the ultra. It’s not as straight forward to see as kara ultra 1. Thinking back though, I didn’t set the dummy on all block and in the corner, which would make testing it easier (I hate when Ken goes into the ultra animation, then sends the dummy mid screen :bluu:). I’ll say this though, if it is possible to do FB FADC U2, it isn’t even worth it to try, for me at least. Because sometimes, I end the ultra like this: :qcf::d::df::hk::3k::r: or :qcf::qcf::uf::hk::3k:. I guess I got used to being sloppy due to the lenient inputs. I use f.HK because it’s much easier to get off then f.MK~3k, since that’s the way I plink HP and HK, ring finger down first then middle + index second. I can do f.MK~3k but it’s inconsistent so it’d take some training to do, but I’m afraid it might mess up my HP/HK plinking. So to me it not really worth it. But I tried a simple cr.MK xx FB FADC f.HK kara U2 to see whether it landed and it did (no sloppy inputs, I made sure it ended in :r::hk: :r::3k: everytime). That tells me two things. Either FB FADC kara ultra is possible, or I’m not getting kara U2. I used Ken as the dummy. The best way I found to try to test this thing was to do 3 chained jabs, low forward fireball. That gives Ken enough pushback. 2 jabs I found you can definitely hit with ultra without kara.

EDIT: did more testing. jab jab, low forward regular fireball fadc kara ultra 2 has worked for me using both f.mk and f.hk. I’m now more comfortable doing kara u2, knowing when I do it right (at least in training), but I still wouldn’t rely on it at all in an actual match. I’m not that comfortable, and I still not too comfortable with f.mk. So I tested the distance. With Ken dummy in the corner, if you’re half a block a way (darkish grey line), you know you’ll hit the ultra every time. If you’re an entire block away (bold black line), it will whiff (when dummy is crouching) unless it’s kara’d. You’ll know if you do kara ultra 2 right if you’re an entire block away and you get the first hit of the ultra and thus the full ultra to land. I tested both f.MK and f.HK in the corner. We all know f.mk gives you the most range, but it’s barley much at all. It’s like a unit more at most. That’s all I have to say on the matter. In the end, I don’t think it is at all reliable in a match from the futhest distance, it wouldn’t hurt to try it when you know the ultra is gonna land anyway, but then there is no reason to do that either so whatever.

[bshock]

After playing with it some more kara u2 is pretty useless. Doesn’t go that far so going through fireballs isn’t that great. The frame addition thing kinda screws up timing on hitting the ultra in a combo. At least kara u1 has some use like using it after aa lp.dp.

Joon, you should try crossup mk > cr.lp > cr.hp on crouched vega, it doesn’t work at all. If I recall there are some other characters like that too, I’m not too sure though.

[lilsicx66]

crossup lk and xup lk tatsu are my xups of choice

[JoontheBaboon]

Still inconclusive as of yet. I don’t even know if I kara the ultra. It’s not as straight forward to see as kara ultra 1. Thinking back though, I didn’t set the dummy on all block and in the corner, which would make testing it easier (I hate when Ken goes into the ultra animation, then sends the dummy mid screen :bluu:). I’ll say this though, if it is possible to do FB FADC U2, it isn’t even worth it to try, for me at least. Because sometimes, I end the ultra like this: :qcf::d::df::hk::3k::r: or :qcf::qcf::uf::hk::3k:. I guess I got used to being sloppy due to the lenient inputs. I use f.HK because it’s much easier to get off then f.MK~3k, since that’s the way I plink HP and HK, ring finger down first then middle + index second. I can do f.MK~3k but it’s inconsistent so it’d take some training to do, but I’m afraid it might mess up my HP/HK plinking. So to me it not really worth it. But I tried a simple cr.MK xx FB FADC f.HK kara U2 to see whether it landed and it did (no sloppy inputs, I made sure it ended in :r::hk: :r::3k: everytime). That tells me two things. Either FB FADC kara ultra is possible, or I’m not getting kara U2. I used Ken as the dummy. The best way I found to try to test this thing was to do 3 chained jabs, low forward fireball. That gives Ken enough pushback. 2 jabs I found you can definitely hit with ultra without kara.

EDIT: did more testing. jab jab, low forward regular fireball fadc kara ultra 2 has worked for me using both f.mk and f.hk. I’m now more comfortable doing kara u2, knowing when I do it right (at least in training), but I still wouldn’t rely on it at all in an actual match. I’m not that comfortable, and I still not too comfortable with f.mk. So I tested the distance. With Ken dummy in the corner, if you’re half a block a way (darkish grey line), you know you’ll hit the ultra every time. If you’re an entire block away (bold black line), it will whiff (when dummy is crouching) unless it’s kara’d. You’ll know if you do kara ultra 2 right if you’re an entire block away and you get the first hit of the ultra and thus the full ultra to land. I tested both f.MK and f.HK in the corner. We all know f.mk gives you the most range, but it’s barley much at all. It’s like a unit more at most. That’s all I have to say on the matter. In the end, I don’t think it is at all reliable in a match from the futhest distance, it wouldn’t hurt to try it when you know the ultra is gonna land anyway, but then there is no reason to do that either so whatever.

I agree. It’s just too hard to execute.

That’s interesting. It probably has to do with Ken getting +8 instead of +7 at C. MK > FB > FADC max distance.

After playing with it some more kara u2 is pretty useless. Doesn’t go that far so going through fireballs isn’t that great. The frame addition thing kinda screws up timing on hitting the ultra in a combo. At least kara u1 has some use like using it after aa lp.dp.

Joon, you should try crossup mk > cr.lp > cr.hp on crouched vega, it doesn’t work at all. If I recall there are some other characters like that too, I’m not too sure though.

I just did and it doesn’t work against Vega. That’s weird. If you hit your opponent while crouching, their Hittable Hit Box widens so you should be able to hit’em with C. HP…

crossup lk and xup lk tatsu are my xups of choice

Have you tried Cross-up HK Tatsu?

[lilsicx66]

i only use crossup hk tatsu on big characters when ive dun a bad jump lol

[G77]

i only use crossup hk tatsu on big characters when ive dun a bad jump lol

I’ve just started using the mk air tatsu cross-over.

It still evades reversal DP’s.
It can be left MUCH later in the jump arc, giving the opponent less time to react.
It still alters the jump arc enough so that you can swap in the regular jump in FP attack from the same distance and spacing.
The timing is a tiny bit stricter than the lk version, but not as hard as the rh version.

I’ve used lk air tatsu since day 1 but to me this seems like the much better option now and I don’t think I’m gonna go back!!

[JoontheBaboon]

i only use crossup hk tatsu on big characters when ive dun a bad jump lol

I see. Well, cross-up HK Tatsu works good against tall characters like Sagat but you can’t link C. LP/C. LK on hit. It works really well against wide Hit Box characters like Abel and Sagat.

I’ve just started using the mk air tatsu cross-over.

It still evades reversal DP’s.
It can be left MUCH later in the jump arc, giving the opponent less time to react.
It still alters the jump arc enough so that you can swap in the regular jump in FP attack from the same distance and spacing.
The timing is a tiny bit stricter than the lk version, but not as hard as the rh version.

I’ve used lk air tatsu since day 1 but to me this seems like the much better option now and I don’t think I’m gonna go back!!

I agree.

[JoontheBaboon]

Random thought at 4 in the morning: Ken has high damage output, but every one of’em is really risky.

1. CS. LP/FS. LP > U2
2. CS. MK > U2
3. Air Tatsu > U2
4. C. LP > C. HP > F. SRK
5. L. SRK > Kara EX SRK (mid-screen)

They all have one thing in common: 1-frame links.

I guess we at least have an option to take the safer route with low damage output using “fake” U1…

Maybe these are the reasons why everyone sees Ken’s potential.

[JoontheBaboon]

Random thought at 6 in the morning: M. Bison can’t chain his C. LK.

[Dodeka]

Random thought at 6 in the morning: M. Bison can’t chain his C. LK.

lol. This is win.

BTW, how much added distance does Kara U1 get? A reasonable amount to link into somethings usually dont link, or perhaps better? Reading through all this makes my Kara happy fingers tingle. And how the hell can I tell when I’ve kara SRK’ed? Tried it once in training mode and the inputs seemed legit, but the distance was seemed non-existent o.o.

I’d also like to make a note that HP SRK>FADC>EX. Air Tatsu> Ultra 1 is awesome. I’ve pretty much opted to using that combo when I know I have the bars to blow it on, and that the ultra will land securely (doesn’t even have to be fully in the corner either) instead of just going directly into U1 after the FADC. It’s a good 100+ extra damage from it and is crazy nice after a Tatsu mix-up. Im sure most of you guys already knew this though xP.

[OmniCloud]

Wouldt it have been awesome if u got the full ultra off a ex tatsu juggle? Hmm…

Joon those setups aren’t all that practical, but if u can master it…yea ur ken would be pretty beastly…those setups have to be tight tho, since the inputs are so simple. I think u2 fails because of its startup. C.mk fb fadc u2 shouldn’t be that tight from the damage u get. And ultra 1 still seems to be on the weak side even after the balancing andnerfs. Well see what the next update does.

Trying to get that consistently is crazytho man.

[lilsicx66]

Those links into u2 r wurth it I practiced them in training and in game for 2 months.the only thing I dnt like about u2 is u can’t get some one off of u and ultra after but offline all the u2 links are practical.I love doing dash under s.mk u2 or empty jump c.lk s.lp u2.It suks that there one framers but once u get the timing memorized it dusnt feel like a one framer but. I do cheat when I use u2 I use kx3 cuz when I use the 3 buttons alone sometimes I get kara u2 and it won’t link