3562

Damn, that sux. I heard SSF4 for PC is in development though?

I thought you were talking about SSF4 Ken’s U1. It did 546 in Vanilla, but now it does 500. “fake” U1 still does the same damage though. I was able to get 459 (with 15 hits) for F. SRK > FADC > Air EX Tatsu > “fake” U1 in Vanilla.

Here are the changes:

Frame Comparison: Super Ken (Vanilla Ken)

  • C. HP: 5 start-up / 5 active / 22 recovery (5/4/23)
  • RH overhead: 21 start-up / 2 active / 20 recovery (23/2/20)
  • Level 2 Focus Attack: 17+13 (18+12)
  • L. SRK: 3 start-up / 11 active / 18+6 recovery / -14 on block (4/11/17+9/-16)
  • M. SRK: 4 start-up / 311 active / 25+14 recovery / -29 on block (4/311/25+9/-24)
  • EX SRK: 4 start-up / 2226 active / 45+9 recovery / -41 on block (5/2237/45+9/-40)
  • LK Tatsumaki: 6 start-up / 1(4)2(6)2 active / 11+6 recovery / -6 on block / -2 on hit (6/1(4)2(6)2/12+8/-9/-5)

Damage/Stun Comparison: Super Ken (Vanilla Ken)

Step Kick - 60/100 (same)
MK overhead - 80/100 (same)
HK overhead - 120/150 (same)
Super (6 hits) - 370 (400)
Full Ultra I (17 hits) - 500 (546)
Full Ultra II (12 hits) - 476 (N/A)

Close Standing:

LP - 30/50 (same)
MP - 60/100 (same)
HP - 90/150 (same)
LK - 30/50 (same)
MK - 70/100 (same)
HK - 110/200 (same)

Far Standing:

LP - 20/50 (same)
MP - 70/100 (same)
HP - 100/200 (same)
LK - 40/50 (same)
MK - 80/100 (same)
HK - 130/200 (same)

Crouching:

LP - 30/50 (same)
MP - 70/100 (same)
HP - 100/200 (same)
LK - 20/50 (same)
MK - 60/100 (70/100)
HK - 100/100 (110/200)

Hadoken:

LP - 60/100 (same)
MP - 60/100 (same)
HP - 60/100 (same)
EX - 90/100 (same)

SRK:

LP - 100/100 (120/200)
MP - 150/200 (160/200)
HP - 140/200 (same)
EX - 180/230 (240/250)

Tatsumaki if the knee hits:

LK - 110/120 (90/100)
MK - 150/170 (180/200)
HK - 180/210 (240/250)
EX - 210/250 (same)

Air Tatsumaki:

LK - 50/50 (same)
MK - 60/50 (same)
HK - 70/50 (same)

Focus Attack:

Level 1 - 60/100 (same)
Level 2 - 90/150 (same)
Level 3 - 150/200 (same)

Throws:

Forward - 120/80 (same)
Back - 130/80 (same)

Neutral Jump:

LP - 50/50 (same)
MP - 80/100 (same)
HP - 100/200 (same)
LK - 40/50 (same)
MK - 80/100 (same)
HK - 100/200 (same)

Forward/Back Jump:

LP - 40/50 (same)
MP - 70/100 (same)
HP - 100/200 (same)
LK - 50/50 (same)
MK - 80/100 (same)
HK - 100/200 (same)

This is also in the 1st page of this thread for future reference.

3563

So hp srk’s frame data didn’t change?

3564

Nope. Not even the invincibility frames.

3565

I still think this is wrong…

Don’t get me wrong on this. If Ken COULD use the cross-up lk tatsu AND have it cause hit/block stun on a crouching opponent, it would be a VERY useful tool, but I’m 99% certain that it whiffs on crouching opponents.

Why?

Well, a few things make me think this:

  1. The tatsu crosses over and hits with Ken’s trailing leg, a bit like a jumping cross-up tatsu, but on the ground. This is why Ken lands with so many + frames advantage, because even when he hits with the front leg of the tatsu, he is at -2. So add on the extra spin THEN hit stun and immediate landing, Ken is at a seriously cool frame advantage.

  2. ONLY the knee strike of Ken’s lk tatsu hits crouchers and forces standing, and this part of the tatsu is well and truly over by the time Ken has crossed over the opponent.

  3. Setting the dummy to “CROUCH” in the training room causes the dummy to stand up for 1 or 2 frames after a knock down and thus could be the cause of your differing results to mine. If you set the dummy to “PLAYBACK” after recording the dummy either just crouch blocking, or even spamming crouching OS techs, and this will remove the standing frames on it’s wake-up. In this instance, I think you’ll find it impossible to hit the dummy with the cross-over tatsu.

This is my thoughts anywho. If it does work how you are suggesting, I will definitely be trying it out A LOT, but I haven’t got it to hit even once, even in training.

Joon, please can you try to recreate your results on a dummy doing “PLAYBACK” of just crouching, or even OS tech spamming and confirm or deny this for me…

My fingers are crossed in that you can prove me wrong on this.

Peace,

G.

P.S.

I’m finally getting my groove on with my stick. Still missing the odd Ultra, sometimes not punishing whiffed attacks effectively (cl.st mk DP as a maximum punish??? I must look like a retard sometimes), but my Option Selects are vastly improved (I can finally OS back dashes with the cr.lk, ex tatsu OS AND hit confirm that ish into the full combo if they eat the cr.lk :slight_smile: ). Just need to find out how the hell you perform the ultra motion fast enough to land U2 after a FADC’ed fireball. One day eh…

3566

No Ken’s DP stayed the same, while other characters moves got nerfed. Sooooo… it’s kinda like a pseudo buff??

I posted this before, but maybe it got a bit lost in the ether. I think it’s still a useful thing to know:

If you perform Ken’s fierce DP while at -2 frame advantage, it will beat out almost EVERY OTHER NON EX MOVE IN THE GAME!!!

So here’s an example:

You land a jumping cross-up ex. tatsu, cr.mk xx lk tatsu combo.

This leaves you at -2.

You start mashing fierce DP and if they stick ANYTHING OUT in that 5 frame gap, you get the counterhit DP and an option to FADC to full U1.

I made a full list of the moves that can beat Ken’s fierce DP at -2 frames.

Akuma can do any DP
Dan can do any DP
Seth can do any DP
Ken can trade with med DP (both others lose completely)
Juri can do Kasatushi to escape (no ex required)
Viper can do med or fierce flame kick to make the dp whiff (no ex required)
Zangief and T-hawk can command grab you (no ex required) if the spacing permits
Rufus can med or fierce snake strike to make the DP whiff (no ex rquired)
Elf can do leg throw to make the DP whiff (no ex required)

So out of the whole cast, only 5 can actually damage you with their reversal attempt without wasting meter.

I thought this was a fairly big find…

Ways to put yourself at -2 effectively?

lk. tatsu on hit.
FADC’ed fierce DP on block.
Step Kick on block.
Med Kick overhead on hit.

If you have 2 stocks, I think this is a VERY viable gamble for Ken…

Peace,

G.

3567

Sorry for the late response:

  1. Good point. After blocking the meaty cross-up LK Tatsu, Ken can block Ryu’s reversal F. SRK.

  2. True.

  3. I’m glad you mentioned this. I recorded this again and found some interesting results. I recorded Ken doing Sweep > Forward Dash > LK Tatsu in the corner. I used Dhalsim and held Down-Back. LK Tatsu whiffed. Next, I held Down-Forward and it block stunned. Dhalsim wasn’t able to mash short or jab either. This also works only in the corner. The timing is REALLY strict (similar to CS. LP/FS. LP > Sweep). Majority of the times I tried recording this set-up, LK Tatsu whiffed on both sides of crouch block. Here are Dhalsim’s options:

Hits = Down / Neutral / Up / Up-Forward / Up-Back / EX Yoga Fire / EX Yoga Flame / EX Yoga Blast / Yoga Tower / U1
Block Stuns = Back / Down-Forward / Forward
Whiffs = Down-Back / Super / all 4 versions of Teleport

I didn’t get to run this back on all the characters, but it’ll have different results.

P.S. Glad to hear you’re improving. Option Selects and P-linking is definitely easier on Stick.

3568

I am a ken player from a countrey you probebly didnt hear of … but we have a decent level of high level play here in kuwait . i main ken and i’d like to share some of my tricks with people who appreciate it .
p.s joon n lilsicx66 (respect) ur recognized !!! too bad yipes doesnt use ken anymore :(.

my favourite frametrap --> crouching close jab to standing close roundhouse into hadouken fadc ultra2 or a risky version (c.lp,sc.hK F.srk , fadc into ultra1) . i use this for people who crouch tech alot. the round house is gonna do hell of a damage and stun its just worth it ! i do use other previosly mentioned frame traps but this is a trad mark of mine. ( u can use this frame trap after 2 crouching jabs but only after an ex tatsu on hit on any char!) .
i noticed that cr.lk , c.lp standing strong does not always hit crouching apponents . so what i do is (c.strong,c,lp,standing forward kick ) its almost a hit every time i use it . and since its counter hit u can combo into c.mk in the corner . i use this frame trap on small hitboxes such as blanka , sakura, cammy n guy .

my favourite k.throw set up is . c.lk ,c.lp,clp , walk back and see what the apoonent inputs and then kara throw .

one other trick i use and i find very very effective is after i hit with a lp.srk . i immedietly empty jump and one i reach the ground i press a crouching short crouching jab . against ryu for some reason that i can’t explain ( and i leave this to jooon :)) it is very useful. if he tries to srk u with a reversal u will be able to block and ur c.lk wont come out . and the thing that confuses me is that he cannot throw as well . so its pretty safe and nice setup for a combo . " i always use lp.srk to start a rush down " .

i hope i didnt bring up any old shit . peace

3569

tricks

I am a ken player from a countrey you probebly didnt hear of … but we have a decent level of high level play here in kuwait . i main ken and i’d like to share some of my tricks with people who appreciate it .
p.s joon n lilsicx66 (respect) ur recognized !!! too bad yipes doesnt use ken anymore :(.

my favourite frametrap --> crouching close jab to standing close roundhouse into hadouken fadc ultra2 or a risky version (c.lp,sc.hK F.srk , fadc into ultra1) . i use this for people who crouch tech alot. the round house is gonna do hell of a damage and stun its just worth it ! i do use other previosly mentioned frame traps but this is a trad mark of mine. ( u can use this frame trap after 2 crouching jabs but only after an ex tatsu on hit on any char!) .
i noticed that cr.lk , c.lp standing strong does not always hit crouching apponents . so what i do is (c.strong,c,lp,standing forward kick ) its almost a hit every time i use it . and since its counter hit u can combo into c.mk in the corner . i use this frame trap on small hitboxes such as blanka , sakura, cammy n guy .

my favourite k.throw set up is . c.lk ,c.lp,clp , walk back and see what the apoonent inputs and then kara throw .

one other trick i use and i find very very effective is after i hit with a lp.srk . i immedietly empty jump and once i reach the ground i press a crouching short crouching jab . against ryu for some reason that i can’t explain ( and i leave this to jooon :)) it is very useful. if he tries to srk u with a reversal u will be able to block and ur c.lk wont come out . and the thing that confuses me is that he cannot throw as well . so its pretty safe and nice setup for a combo . " i always use lp.srk to start a rush down " .

i hope i didnt bring up any old shit . peace

3570

nice frame traps ill b testing them cuz im havn truble trapping some characters consitantly. but its very wierd being even slightly known fo a video game but thx for the shoutouts. joon chaos slim bannana ken me bowflexmike damdai? and a cuple others will b reppin ken at evo. lets get ken up on the tier list and try to hold our own against the japanese

3571

nah it aint weird ! its global now. every one is playing sf4 ,every one is watching streams and checking top players … and the US is no exception . damdai does not use ken anymore does he ??

3572

ive seen damdai use ken a cuple times recently but hes more of a ryu now. im lerning ryu after evo but ony for some bad matches wish we had some more japan vids of wao and dboy ichi strike and them i need some help in some spots but i tested those frame traps they wurk on late techs but they wont wurk if some 1 is mashing short or jab they will get a counter hit. but i think its a good trap cuz most ppl late tech and if they mashing jab or short theres other ways to deal with that

3573

what can i do if balrog is mashing jab ?

3574

thats what im tryna figure out

3575

2 to 3 crouching shorts into c.mk . it works on dummys and i tried it on a masher online just now .

3576

Balrog’s been getting easier lately for me. I’m not sure why but I think i’ve figured out their spacing pattern. They tend to put you in a block string until their last cr. jab puts you too far to continue. What i tend to do is approach them with a cr.lk into cr.mk, and if they block, they tend to mash jabs again. I look at the pattern, when that last jab is going to put me too far, I do a kara-focus, and get to work. That usually discourages them from that jab nonsense. Also, using cr. mp can interrupt sometimes but it’s not as reliable. I’d have to try against a dummy

3577

Wow, I didn’t realize all these people posted here b4 EVO. Sorry for the late response:

C. LP > CS. HK > FB is a good Frame Trap for late Crouch Techers (it looks cool too), but I personally like to use C. LP > C. HP > FB because you can actually time when you want to Frame Trap your opponent.

C. MP > C. LP > CS. MK sounds good. One of my favorite Frame Trap is C. LP > CS. MK > buffer double QCF and if it hits or counter hits > U2.

That Kara Throw set-up works really well. People can’t seem to resist Crouching Teching because of our Kara Throws.

Your LP SRK set-up is interesting. If Ryu Technical and Reversal SRK, Ken blocks (but if Ryu Technical and C. LK/C. LP, it Counter Hits your Forward Empty Jump > C. LK/C. LP follow-up). You can condition your opponent to do a lot of things from this set-up.

Good stuff dooki87. I’d like to see you play. Let us know when you have any videos up:

http://shoryuken.com/f259/cant-handle-heat-then-put-down-flowchart-scrub-ken-video-thread-182155/

Could you be more specific?

3578

Anyone say anything about kara ultra 2 yet? It’s pretty hard with the mk but you can just kara rh to the other 2 kicks really easily. It seems really helpful for going through fireballs and helping combos but I don’t have it down pat yet.

You can kara lk+mk into rh for the mk kara but it’s really awkward for my fingers. Thinking of using the thumb and index for the first two might actually be easier but I haven’t really tried that out yet.

I think that when the kara ultra 2 gets perfected you’ll be able to do things like c.lk, c.lp, c.mk > ex.fb > fadc > ultra 2 without whiffing even on crouching opponents. Probably even better on a normal fb because it has less pushback.

Just posting it right now so someone better than me can try and get their hands on this.

3579

I remember seeing that I did

:r::3k:
:r::mk:

In training but I don’t remember if it actually kara’d or not. All I know was that the input was pretty easy, whereas I thought it’d be more difficult because of going from one kick button to all three in quick succession. So, I will have to try it out more. I’m sure f.HK~3k button would be easier. However, I only use the 6 button arcade standard on principle, so that’s a no go for me, but I’ll at least try it out too. But yes, that’s already been proposed to deal with crouchers who end up too far way, as well as dealing with fireballs (I know I love Chun-Li’s dash-ultra to punish fireballs). I’m not sure that anyone has really implemented it in their game though.

3580

Surely Kara’ing U2 will add 3 frames to the start up? Thus making it a 10 frame start up, slower than U1 and thus unable to combo?

I really have no idea because I have soooo much trouble FADC’ing after fireballs that, for me, U2 feels like a 1 or 2 frame link after a standard fireball. I tend to HAVE to use an EX fireball to make it a reliable combo, and even then…ugh.

3581

I’m using a 6 button stick too, it just feels really weird putting your middle finger down first then simultaneously doing index and ring. It feels a lot more fluid going ring then the other two. I was doing combos in training with the kara so it is possible, I was mostly doing it with the ex fb because that’s the one thats easier for me. I did it a couple times with the normal fb, but the timings really weird, I usually tap 3k a couple times when I combo that so kara’ing it is completely new to me.

It does seem to make j.fp/j.mk > c.lp > c.mk > ex.fb > fadc > ultra 2 a lot more reliable on crouching chars. It also makes anti air lp.srk > ultra 2 a little bit easier, but still completely unreliable.

I totally didn’t think about the frame addition but it still does work.

edit: hey g77 i recommend practicing a lot with ex.fb > fadc > ultra 2 first to get your fingers used to the motion. I thought non ex fb > fadc > ultra 2 was downright impossible at first but after getting really used to ex it’s not really THAT bad.