3522

I don’t. OS Tatsu doesn’t punish his Back Dash or Back Slash and OS Sweep doesn’t punish his Back Slash or Short Back Slash.

3523

how do we deal with this situation? It seems like vega can always get away freely in this situation.

another question is , if i do a kara f.srk, does it take away the Invincible frames for the statup?

3524

I’d say just punish it on reaction.

No, it’s still there. But you’re not invincible while you’re canceling your Step Kick (F+MK) into F. SRK though.

3525

I have a quick question.

Now that Ken is -2 after a FADC’ed DP, is it worth always charging the FA and landing that, then dashing in for the follow up. I should have been able to work it out using frame data, but I can’t find out what the frame advantage is after a blocked FADC level 1/level 2 if you dash in.

3526

I must be missing something here.

I find that U2 punishes either of his back flips on reaction. The timing isn’t even that tough!! For me, using U2 against Vega is a great way to keep him still on wake-up.

Maybe I’ve only played Scrubby Vega’s, but I’m gonna have to say that U2 is the go to Ultra for this match up. One back flip and he eats 500 damage for the sake of it.

3527

I’ve been doing that a lot lately, but you shouldn’t always do it because your opponent can reversal the moment they see you Focus Cancel. Besides, -2 is still good under pressure.

Kens -2 on block from Level 1 FA > Forward Dash and +4 on block from Level 2 FA > Forward Dash (http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2010/may/02/walk-speed-comparison-super-street-fighter-4/)

I also put the link in the 1st page of this thread for future reference.

3528

Ultra 2 is definitely the way to go against Vega. I don’t even think twice. Not only is the backflip punishable, but I land soooo many close low forwards in this matchup it’s ridiculous.

3529

Question:

When try to tatsu cross-up on wake up, what is kens best tatsu? Ive tried both MK and HK but both seem inconsistent. I cross them up but it doesnt hit it just misses then completely which leads to me my next question. Mabye I am not doing it at the right height but when do you tatsu for cross-up? is it at the peak of his jump or is it right AFTER the peak of his jump?

3530

C. LP > CS. LK (Option Select U2) punishes Short Back Slash. It only hits once (23 damage) if he does Back Slash. It whiffs on Back Dash so I don’t think it’s a good option. The Vegas I play never let me land C. MK unless I’m in.

Best is LK and HK because it’s really hard for opponents to auto-correct.

Air LK Tatsu: slightly after the peak of the jump (it’ll spin once and cross-up).
Air MK Tatsu: slightly after the peak of the jump (it’ll spin twice and cross-up).
Air HK Tatsu: half-way down after the peak of the jump (it’ll spin once and cross-up).

3531

Awesome thanks! :smiley:

3532

Hey guys, I had my last finals yesterday. I finally had the time to record all of Ken’s moves!

Move (start-up): Range

CS. LP (4): 0.238-0.738, 0.239-0.739
CS. MP (6): 1.377-1.977, 1.361-1.961, 1.343-1.943
CS. HP (6): 0.187-0.687, 0.195-0.695, 0.246-0.446
CS. LK (6): 1.280-2.180, 1.293-2.193
CS. MK (8): 0.311-0.711…
CS. HK (8): 1.442-2.703, 1.424-2.664, 1.391-2.601

FS. LP (4): 0.401-1.001, 0.412-1.012
FS. MP (7): 0.520-1.120, 0.520-1.120, 0.519-1.119, 0.518-1.118, 0.516-1.116
FS. HP (11): 0.606-1.206, 0.614-1.214, 0.620-1.220
FS. LK (4): 0.296-0.896, 0.290-0.890, 0.283-0.883
FS. MK (7): 0.261-1.061, 0.258-1.058, 0.255-1.055
FS. HK (12): 1.075-1.775, 1.096-1.796, 1.112-1.812

C. LP (3): 0.373-0.873, 0.381-0.881, 0.382-0.882
C. MP (5): 0.455-0.955, 0.464-0.964, 0.467-0.967, 0.466-0.966, 0.462-0.962
C. HP (5): 0.267-0.767, 0.275-0.775, 0.231-0.531, 0.235-0.535, 0.237-0.537
C. LK (3): 0.147-0.947, 0.152-0.952, 0.158-0.958, 0.161-0.961
C. MK (4): 0.520-1.420, 0.543-1.443, 0.561-1.461, 0.575-1.475
C. HK (8): 0.850-1.650, 0.848-1.648, 0.840-1.640

Neutral Jump LP (7): 0.397-0.997 (times 9)
Neutral Jump MP (5): 0.399-0.899, 0.403-0.903, 0.404-0.904, 0.403-0.903
Neutral Jump HP (7): 0.300-1.000 (times 4)
Neutral Jump LK (7): 0.300-0.700 (times 10)
Neutral Jump MK (6): 0.161-1.261, 0.156-1.256, 0.150-1.250, 0.144-1.244, 0.138-1.238, 0.132-1.232, 0.127-1.227
Neutral Jump HK (6): 0.597-1.197 (times 2)

Forward Jump LP (7): 0.582-0.982, 0.641-1.041, 0.697-1.097, 0.753-1.153, 0.807-1.207, 0.861-1.261, 0.915-1.315, 0.969-1.369
Forward Jump MP (5): 0.718-1.318, 0.774-1.374, 0.830-1.430, 0.886-1.486, 0.942-1.542, 0.997-1.597
Forward Jump HP (5): 0.474-1.174, 0.533-1.233, 0.589-1.289, 0.643-1.343
Forward Jump LK (5): 0.137-0.937, 0.195-0.995, 0.251-1.051, 0.305-1.105, 0.357-1.157, 0.409-1.209, 0.460-1.260
Forward Jump MK (6): 0.124-1.224, 0.179-1.279, 0.234-1.334, 0.289-1.389
Forward Jump HK (5): 0.530-1.430, 0.598-1.498, 0.654-1.554, 0.709-1.609, 0.764-1.664, 0.819-1.719, 0.874-1.774

MK overhead:
Step Kick (11): 1.412-2.212, 1.424-2.224, 1.429-2.229, 1.432-2.232, 1.433-2.233
HK overhead (21): 1.189-2.189, 1.243-2.243

Focus Attack lvl 1 (22): 0.303-1.464, 0.205-1.221
Focus Attack lvl 2 (17+13): 0.303-1.464, 0.205-1.221
Focus Attack lvl 3 (68): 0.282-1.420, 0.176-1.138

Throw (3): 0.028-0.900, 0.005-0.923

LP SRK (3): 0.180-0.780, 0.190-0.790, 0.200-0.800, 0.037-0.770, 0.145-0.645, 0.249-0.589, 0.219-0.674, 0.226-0.687, 0.244-0.687, 0.264-0.680, 0.282-0.673
MP SRK (4): 0.150-0.750, 0.170-0.770, 0.190-0.790, 0.125-0.841, 0.017-0.790, 0.211-0.648, 0.297-0.641, 0.284-0.730, 0.299-0.762, 0.324-0.780, 0.354-0.791, 0.384-0.799, 0.413-0.808, 0.438-0.816
HP SRK (3): 0.327-1.027, 0.383-1.083, 0.603-1.203, 0.630-1.230, 0.618-1.425, 0.695-1.195, 0.895-1.226, 0.974-1.361, 1.041-1.493, 1.119-1.582, 1.200-1.658, 1.279-1.724, 1.354-1.782, 1.424-1.835, 1.488-1.882, 1.544-1.925
EX SRK (4): 0.357-0.957, 0.376-0.976, 0.550-1.150, 0.582-1.182, 0.548-1.355, 0.721-1.104, 0.879-1.232, 0.975-1.414, 1.088-1.550, 1.206-1.667, 1.324-1.774, 1.440-1.874, 1.552-1.969, 1.659-2.059?

LK Tatsumaki (6): 0.305-0.705, #, #, #, #, 0.705-1.767?
MK Tatsumaki (6): 0.206-0.606, 0.256-0.656, #, #, #, #, #, 0.716-1.781?
HK Tatsumaki (6): 0.146-0.546, 0.166-0.566, #, #, #, #, #, #, 0.737-1.769?
EX Tatsumaki (6): 0.306-0.760, 0.406-0.806, #, #, #, #, 1.017-2.048?

Air LK Tatsumaki (8): 0.739-1.575, 0.757-1.545 (Front), #, #, #, #, #, #, 0.098-0.794, 0.062-0.902 (Back)
Air MK Tatsumaki (7): 0.712-1.566 (Front), #, #, #, #, 0.266-0.537 (Back)
Air HK Tatsumaki (7): 0.682-1.480 (Front), #, #, 0.405-0.432 (Back)
Air EX Tatsumaki (6): 0.619-1.678 (Front), #, #, 0.381-0.605 (Back)

LP Super: 0.116-0.762, 0.440-0.961, 0.412-1.214, 0.194-1.221, 0.287-1.238, 0.311-1.315, 0.374-1.329, 0.426-1.320, 0.471-1.304, 0.498-1.272, 0.443-1.274, (# times 20), 1.269-2.001?
MP Super: 0.085-0.832, 0.407-1.074, 0.472-1.274, 0.274-1.301, 0.387-1.338, 0.431-1.435, 0.514-1.469, 0.586-1.480, 0.651-1.484, 0.698-1.472, 0.663-1.494, (# times 20), 1.769-2.501?
HP Super: 0.115-0.862, 0.467-1.134, 0.562-1.364, 0.394-1.421, 0.537-1.488, 0.611-1.615, 0.724-1.679, 0.826-1.720, 0.921-1.754, 0.998-1.772, 0.993-1.824, (# times 20), 2.519-3.251?

Ultra 1 (1+9): 0.290-1.000, 0.398-1.363, 0.607-1.113, 0.722-1.051, 0.248-0.848, 0.255-0.855?
Ultra 2 (1+6): 0.372-1.372, 0.472-1.472 (Front), #, #, #, #, #, #, 0.822-2.022, 0.922-2.122 (Front), #, #, #, 0.222-1.222, 0.322-1.322 (Back)?

  • These #'s are really useful if you want to level up your Footsie game. For example, Balrog’s longest normal (that also happens to be his Low Attack) is 1.279-1.779, 1.290-1.790. Since Ken’s FS. HK is 1.075-1.775, 1.096-1.796, 1.112-1.812, the safest place to play Footsies against Balrog is outside of Ken’s FS. HK.

This leveled up my Footsie game. I hope it helps you guys too. I highly recommend everyone to download SSF4 Hit Box Data: http://btjunkie.org/torrent/Super-Street-Fighter-4-SSF4-Hitbox-Data/4196097c2b60c106b4ad11301a0f33ac5bcd0dc8e44d

P.S. All the information I find will be on the 1st page of this thread for future reference.

Edit: Oh, I almost forgot- It looks like Ken’s MK overhead isn’t in the SSF4 Hitbox Data. Anybody have it?

3533

Awesome work putting all that together Joon… I noticed that his overhead MK was missing too, I got all the files and its not in there. The hitbox for the full U1 is also missing :frowning:

How are you interpreting the “reach” data though?

I spent a while looking at it, and its not a simple indicator of how far the red hitbox extends. IE cs.MK is 1.344 - 1.744, wihle cr.MK is 0.5 - 1.4… Its obvious that crouching mk is one of the longest reaching attacks, so the numbers aren’t a simple indicator of how far it extends.

Its not an “origin” + “distance” value either…
And it doesn’t seem like an X - Y value…
It doesn’t seem like a length-width value…

Any thoughts?

3534

wow you guys want ken clown to be even more of a clone to ryu? lmao. The list in the beginning of this thread is hilarious.

3535

Thx for pointing that out. Ken’s CS. MK is not 1.380-1.780, 1.363-1.763, 1.344-1.744, it’s 0.311-0.711 (it doesn’t show the reach on the 2nd and 3rd Active Frame). For some reason, Ken’s “Proximity” folder has 2 videos. One video has the wrong #'s and the other video has the right #'s except CS. MK. But other than those few mistakes in the SSF4 Hit Box Data, the Active (Red) Hit Box is the indicator of how far the move extends. So the value defines “beginning of Active Hit Box” - “ending of Active Hit Box”. The horizontal length of Ken’s CS. MK is .400.

The CS. MK #'s are wrong, but at least we know the longest reach is in the 1st active frame.

3536

I don’t use the option select anyway. You can land a lot of low forwards as you are pressing the advantage on Vega simply because they are terrified of being thrown. If you have thrown Vega and you have 2 bars and and Ultra 2 stocked, Vega pretty much has to guess correctly on wake up or lose 50% life. After you throw, you setup the ambiguous jump in. You can either cross up, land on the front side, or empty jump low forward.

If he back flips, Ultra.
If he tries the anti-air flip kick, it whiffs and you ultra.
If he guesses wrong on blocking the ambiguous jump in , you get combo into ultra.
If he eats the empty jump low forward, fireball/ultra.

Anyway, on a non-Vega related note, this one isn’t something that you’ll want or have the ability to try often, but it’s fun and pretty satisfying if you actually do land it. If you have 4 bars and an ultra and successfully get a counter-hit fierce DP:

Counter-hit fierce DP > FADC Dash forward > standing jab as they are falling > dash forward to cross under > immediate low forward > fireball > FADC > Ultra 2 = Stylin

3537

Yeah, but you can do those set-ups with U1 as well. The hard part is knocking him down. Vegas main game is to keep you out. But I think against him, both Ultras are useful.

You can also do that set-up from AA CS. LP/FS. LP too. It’s a good mix-up, but I don’t think it’s rewarding enough from a CH F. SRK. The damage is too low and if you dash under they know which way to block. Even if you make it ambiguous, it’d be hard to C. MK > FB since you wouldn’t even know which side you’re going to be on. I personally like to CH F. SRK > Sweep > Ambiguous Safe/Empty Jump, but to each his own.

3538

Thanks. Do you have any general idea how much further the kara srk gets you? I tried practicing it by going back as far as I could in the training room, measuring a normal srk (let’s say, the foot lands on this line) performed from a crouch (df, db, df) so I wouldn’t have some walking variable, then tried doing df, db, df, f+mk~hp. I tried the same timing as doing say a kara throw. The most it ever seemed to offer was maybe an additional foot width of the screen.

Maybe I am just spoiled by Sagat’s ridiculously easy and incredibly advantageous kara upper, which is a very noticeable distance increase. Is there a video (Sf4) of this being done? Or a secret to it? Maybe I’m just doing it wrong.

3539

It’s subtle compared to Sagat’s, but that’s all you need. Ken’s F. SRK already has a good horizontal range so an “additional foot width” helps a lot.

I don’t think theres a video or a secret to it. You’re doing it right.

3540

I had a good set last night against a very precise and awesome Abel. He was using (and abusing) U2 “Breathless”.

Apart from trying to backdash out of his block strings more, I cannot think of any way to constantly beat him. I would guess the set ended at about 75% to him 25% to me.

I was OS throwing on my jump ins on his wake-up, which was working well, but I was having so much trouble avoiding his command throws and that damn Ultra, I really couldn’t impose my game on him at all.

Any tips?

G.

3541

Abels are tough, especially in Super. Safe Jump against him is no good. Even if you Safe Jump Option Select, he has ways around it. On his wake-up, C. LP > CS. LK [Option Select Kara Throw] beats Back Dash and all 4 versions of his roll (Credits to Lilsicx66). This forces him to take the block string or reversal EX Command Throw on his wake-up.

During his block string, Back Dash is the best option but I mix-up Neutral Jump a lot because you can punish it on the way down with HP > Ultra. It’ll let him know that Command Throw is a bigger risk for him than his reward.

Abel’s U2’s biggest weakness is that it has Hyper Armor (note: Safe Jump loses to U2). If you do a meaty and he activates U2 (example: wake-up U2), cancel it into a special move. If he does it randomly mid-screen, Empty Jump Forward and cancel your 1st landing frame into a special move.