81

Just updated with most of the stuff you listed. Also updated Abel and Akuma’s stuff after looking through their files.

82

@Eternal
I’m not really deep into how hurtboxes work in SF4. But if there is no actual 2D hurtbox assigned to an attack does that mean the game will use the 3D model as base for a hurtbox automactially or is it assigned in the frame data tables ?

83

Just saw on CEO, Snake Eyez hit EX greenhand on a crouching opponent and the cancel into red focus whiffed. That’s stupid. The crouching reeling animations are killing red focus combos and making people waste 3 bars just to get punished. What a way to go.

84

Technically hurtboxes are never “2D”. They are 2D in the sense that the hurtbox has no depth itself but they are attached on a 3D plane. So for example, you know how C.Viper’s far HK (now B+HK) makes her swipe her leg from towards the screen to away from the screen? Because the hittbox is actually attached to her leg, as it gets farther from the screen it becomes smaller as it’s farther away from the camera.

The way hurtboxes work (to my understanding) is this.

By default, there is a preset size hurtbox attached to every part of the body based on the model. I think it’s based on the model bones but I’m not sure. Either way there are several possible parts of the body:
Waist, stomach, chest, head, L/R Shoulder, L/R Elbow, L/R Wrist, L/R Hand, L/R Hip, L/R Knee, L/R Ankle and L/R Foot (L/R = left or right, can be designated on their own.) I BELIEVE these are the only ones that can be used.

Then you have “invincibility” this section is where the game tells what parts of the body to enable vulnerability on. E.G. “All body parts except for The head, left wrist, and right foot are invincible to strikes”

If the invincibility section is not manually designated then by default it enables all body parts hurtboxes.

After that you have the actual hurtboxes themselves. What you are doing isn’t CREATING a hurtbox, in fact you are just manipulating the existing hurtbox. So you take the hurtbox attached to say: the characters head and you move it’s position and size to where you want them to be on specific frames. These hurtboxes are still in fact attached to those parts of the body, they are just displaced. So for example, the hurtbox on Evil Ryu’s leg during his far MK is actually his head hurtbox moved to a new position. If at any point during the animation his head moves the hurtbox that LOOKS like it’s on his leg will move the same amount. This is noticable on Cody’s far MK which is also attached to his head, so while his leg lowers the hurtbox stays the same, but the hurtbox changes position as his head moves up/down during parts of it.

So to sum up, hurtboxes are always there you just disable/enable their invincibility and manipulate their size/position. If you don’t designate the size/position of a hurtbox or you don’t tell the game “make these hurtboxes invincible” on specific frames it will just go back to default and be based on the character’s model entirely.

95% of moves in SF4 the hurtboxes are not at all designated during recovery frames of attacks as well as reeling animations.

I hope I didn’t OVER explain this lol.

85

Updated with Chun and Dan stuff I spotted.

86

I don’t get what you mean by this. Presuming they haven’t been changed since super, I looked at the hitbox data videos and it looks like there are plenty of hurtboxes around he during the startup of these (similar to how it is for most characters during recovery).

Now if you mean they’re procedurally generated unlike her cl. HP and cl. HK, then I get that. If that’s what you meant, I’ll just say this quote makes it seem like they don’t exist during startup with the way it’s worded, but she can be still be hit during the startup of these moves.

87

Just looked into it. Files show he should be able to reversal U1/U2 HOWEVER it does show that in addition to not being able to perform super with reversal input leniency, Rolento also cannot perform his super during pre-jump frames like everyone else can.

Feedback noted and I’ll reword it. Generally speaking, whenever I say “Designated” I mean “designated by a developer” E.G. manually created instead of procedurally generated.

The issue with the hurtboxes on startup frames is something that seems to plague almost all vanilla characters. Ryu, Blanka, Chun Li, Guile, Ken, Rose, ect none of them have hurtboxes setup properly during startup frames on their close normals. There are a couple that do (Gen and Sagat for instance) but for the most part no. They started doing hurtboxes on close range normals when they did the console exclusive chars for SF4 and have continued since. My best guess is that they figured “well they are really close range so the hurtbox size doesn’t matter” without thinking about things like anti airs or counterhits.

88

Okay. Sorry I was only skimming over Chun’s section at the time and just noticed you mentioned it being based around the model in other character sections.

For this, it’s likely a result of the change they made to it from Vanilla -> Super. It was made to be slower by 1f, but I guess they neglected to correct the hurtbox and counterhit state as well.

-There is another thing for her that I wondered about that you reminded me of with that tenshokyaku info. In the wiki, it has always been listed as 5 hits, but I’ve never had it connect more than 4 times on any character during the entirety of SF4. So it makes me wonder, if there is a 5th hit, why is it there and how did someone even find out about it? My guess is through cracking the PC version because it would be hard to prove otherwise. The move isn’t even available in the hitbox vids to view. In-game, visually she does perform a 5th kick, but it never hits anyone.

89

You’re not very creative when it comes to training mode! Try to think of alternate ways it could be done that are less obvious. :stuck_out_tongue:

Pick Chun + Seth (or Chun + a few other characters)

Record Chun doing B+MK MK D-U MK with delays between each one so they aren’t true block strings.

Switch to Seth back up into the corner, block first two hits, jump just as Chun does the Tensho. Chun gets all 5 hits of Tensho.:stuck_out_tongue:

90

so if I understand, this is not a bug/improper data:

but if I say: cr.lp, cr.lp, cr.lk, cr.mp xx lk spiral works when Oni is on P1 side but not on P2
or
cl.mk, cr.mp xx lp spark works when balrog is on P1 side but not on P2 side

do they count as bugs ?

Also:

  • cl.HP xx LP Spark connects on crouching Chun. But COUNTER HIT cl.HP xx LP Spark doesn’t
  • COUNTER HIT: cl.HP xx EX Sparks makes the EX Spark COMPLETELY whiffs on crouching Chun
  • cl.HP xx super makes the super do 1 hit on crouching abel on any corner
  • U1 never does counter hit damage while it still has data for it
  • cr.HP is special/EX cancelable on the 1st 2 active frames but not on the last 3 active frames
  • Rose cannot cancel MP/HP reflect into her super while reflecting a fireball even if the data is still there
91

thing is most characters deal with stuff like this in sf4, it’s not some sort of rose specific issue. combos are just specific in who they work on based on standing/crouching

literally every character i’ve seen tried to play around with has these same issues.

92

I’d say any instances of combos working on P1 side and not P2 or vice versa are because of a major bug and need to be fixed IMO. Specific combos not working because of crouching or standing pushboxes being different IMO isn’t a bug. Dumb? Fuck yes. But not a bug. Pretty much a universal trait for every character, just so happens that one of Rose’ main BnBs is affected by it.

Miss set data is very specific. Any instance where you can go to the character file and point at SPECIFIC numbers and show how they are improperly set is miss set data. E.G. improper counterhit bonuses.

1-3 I’ll look into
4:Universal issue. The first hit of U1 is actually zero damage and initiates the animation. Same reason trades with soul throw do no damage.
5. Intentional, most anti air normals function this way. It can be seen on Fei’s close HP, all shoto crHP, Seth’s close HP, ect ect.
6. Intentional. Rose’s super is projectile restricted. The moment you reflect a fireball it’s consider yours. Same reason you can’t throw a fireball as long as a reflected fireball is on screen. The only solution to this would be to allow Rose to have a fireball trap where she can do super while her fireball is still on screen preventing people from neutral jumping her fireball at most ranges or jumping in on her when she starts her fireball.

93

Indeed. I didn’t want to post this only for Rose but for ANY characters having the same issues. I just wanted to know if those kind of things counted as bugs/improper data inputs

5.Ken’s cr.HP is cancelable all the way
Dhalsim’s 4MP is cancelable all the way
Oni’s cr.HP is cancelable all the way
Ryu’s cr.HP is cancelable all the way (although only super cancelable on last active frames)
I don’t think its an AA thing. Just they have a list of characters should have and some not.

  1. Why can she cancel her LP then ? isn’t the fireball considered hers until it disappears too ?
94

.

95

Fireball disappears the moment she touches it with her reflect hitbox on LP version. The little absorbing graphic is just graphical flair. The fireball is gone on that first frame afaik.

Ryu’s crHP is only special cancelable on the first 2F active. Remaining time is super cancelable however.
Oni’s is the same deal. First 2F active special cancelable, remaining frames only super.

Ken/Dhalsim are all the way through. MOST anti air normals that function like Rose’s crHP aren’t special cancelable after the first 2-3F.

Ryu, Oni, Akuma, Sakura, Dan (he can cancel all but last frame) and others crHP
Guile, Fei, Seth, Cammy, Sakura, Honda, Ken, Ryu and many others clsHP

It’s FAR more common to NOT be able to special cancel the anti air frames of those type of attacks than it is to be able to do so. It’s certainly not a bug, it’s 100% intentional. Personally I understand it since most of them have a bunch of active frames and could be used as super meaties. I don’t agree with it, but I understand it. I just wish that they didn’t also get lower damage on those frames usually (resulting in weaker anti airs :confused: )

96

Akuma has a combo on Decapre that only works when she’s on P1’s side.

http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html

97

Before you posted this, I’ve tried the delay string method vs. several other characters (I figured if it worked on anyone it would be someone as big as a grappler), and the counter hit method because that was new information to me with it juggling lower on CH, but admittedly not vs. Seth and not jumping forward. After testing that method on all 44 characters I’ve found it only:

-Hits Dhalsim 5 times by counter-hitting one of his air normals like yoga sniper
-Hits Guy 5 times if you knock him out of bunshin flip midscreen sometimes
-Hits Guile 5 times if you jump forward midscreen (not corner)
-Hits Vega 5 times out of his wall dives midscreen. (not corner)
-Hits T Hawk 5 times if you counter-hit him out of LP tomahawk buster
-Hits Adon 5 times if you hit him out of MK Jaguar Kick midscreen sometimes
-Hits Hugo 5 times if you jump forward midscreen or do Non-EX Shootdown Backbreaker

And here’s the kicker (probably how whoever recorded the frame data on the wiki got it): With the delay string blocked it’ll hit Hakan 5 times REGARDLESS of whether you jump or not.
Ugh! I almost never used Hakan as a training dummy because his hurtbox deviates so much that other regular combos are inconsistent/don’t work on him. I’m so sorry. I didn’t test vs. the default character on the character select screen. >_<

Those are all extremely situational for what it’s worth, but mystery solved and tested extensively.

98

About the Elena hitbox inconsistencies on Lynx Tail, Scratch Wheel and Spin Scythe, it’s common enough that you can usually go through any set footage and see it happen at least once. Here’s a vid.

At 0:26, she does Lynx Tail. Notice that the combo count resets in the middle of it. Had the opponent known of the possibility of it failing, they could have got a full punish.
Then at 0:57, she hits with the first part of Spin Scythe but then the second hit misses, resulting in a punish.

99

Ok, the chun stuff seems to be exclusive to chun so far (I didn’t test everyone, just chars with smaller hurtboxes + reeling animations I knew might cause it.) If someone has more simple combos that whiff due to chun’s reeling animations during crouching I might mention it in Chun’s stuff as an issue. Otherwise it’s just too specific a situation IMO.

The super stuff is actually pretty broad and I’ll add it. I found a number of characters close HP -> Super whiffs mid screen or in the corner. It’s also a simple fix of expanding the hitbox downward during the first 2F active of her super.

While exploring this issue I found this little combo:

:stuck_out_tongue:

100

Yeah, let’s nerf Guile more than he was already nerfed. Every Guile knows this and can use this to their advantage. Removing this gives him fewer options.