Yeah I like to use OS flip, to get it to auto correct you have to delay the OS a lil. Also, I’m pretty sure you have to be real accurate with the motion when inputting the flip because if the akuma teleports through you, I believe a tatsu might come out instead of a flip.
There’s a setup against guile in which you can do a ‘safe jump’ demon flip throw… off a forward throw and 2 dashes, do MK flip to grab, and any reversals should whiff. His only option to avoid are jumping or backdash, which both will get stuffed by divekicks.
Also, for demon flip OS in mirror matches, you just need to buffer in the HK demon flip as late as possible and it will autocorrect… this is assuming if you’re OSing off demon flip dive kick. This is really good since you’ll barely punish in time with a palm. Makes it really scary to teleport.
Newbie question about this, but I’d like to finally understand how it works lol: let’s say I (Player 1 side) land a sweep on the opponent (Player 2). I then proceed on DF’ing, still landing on the Player 1 side, while the enemy teleports towards the left edge of the screen, basically passing through my hitbox.
I shouldn’t (being an option select, even if a late one, it should autocorrect) reverse my input for the OS DF, right? I mean, my input should still be :dp: + :hk: (would a EX Flip help here?)?
I’m asking because the few times I tried, the outcome was a crappy HK Tatsu towards the Player 2 side, and my take was that I just screwed the OS, but I was never able to confirm it…
My bad, I should’ve specified. For the autocorrect to work, you have to to your demon flip dive kick very deep and very late. For example, after a forward throw 2x dash against Akuma (you are on player 1 side), do a MK demon flip, and then hit the “kick” part of the dive kick as you’re approaching his head. After that, you buffer in the input of the flip just as you said, but delay it. Since you do the input so late, if he teleports towards the left edge, it will allow you to auto correct and palm him in time. I don’t know if it’ll matter, but I use the shortcut for demon flip;
:df::d::df::hk:
That might be the reason why tatsu comes out for you.
Anyway, this isn’t just limited to forward throws… to setup for max range sweeps, you use HK flip, and mid range sweeps (say after like, LK LP MP tatsu sweep), you use MK.
Yeah that’s it<3 I hate having to condition myself to input a move a different way, even though it’s just a diagonal input instead of the forward, idk… it bothers me. Stupid shortcuts ;_;
So yesterday I fought a decent Zangief on one of my friend’s endless lobbies and have some questions against Zangief’s wake up game.
Options (?):
- Demon flip dive kick: Beats lariat if aimed well at his head on wake up, but I found this relatively hard to do and often traded with Zangief and ate EX green hands for it.
- Demon flip throw: Does this beat his lariat on startup? Or is it most viable after you’ve conditioned him to block?
- Demon flip palm (OS): I know that his lariat is 4 frames on startup (although pretty small frame on the timing window) so I know it can be safe-palmed, but how viable is it against Zangief? Any good, recommended OS’s? (Backdash?)
- Safe jump normal: Same question as safe palm.
If there are any other options that are good on his wake up, it’d be awesome to hear. I’m just trying to better understand the MU. I know the general mindset of this MU is run the hell away and chuck fireballs and teleport away, but just trying to learn how to exploit his wake up game.
Demon flip throw:
- beats lariat, EX green hand, blocking, EX SPD, and safe against wake up jump to U2.
- they can back dash SPD or Ultra 1.
Demon flip dive kick (activate it right above his head, not high in the air; this makes it look tricky and make them do their anti air PPP lariat too early):
- should beat reversal lariats and you can sweep punish if he EX green hands (iirc), and you reset him if he back dashes and straight up beat him if he EX SPD’s. If they block, you get small chip damage but an unfavorable situation.
- loses (usually trades) to late crouch PPP lariat (but this can be countered with throw or palm) and wakeup jump to Ultra 2. They have time to do jump Ultra 2 because your dive kick should not hit them meaty. However, if you do your dive kick really good, the window for them to jump Ultra 2 is really small.
Demon flip palm:
- beats late crouch lariats and U2 attempts With df palm option select U1 or U2, you can also beat both back dash and EX green hand… If you don’t have Ultra stocked, I believe HK tatsu might beat both of these options as well. I forgot.
If they block, you get small chip damage but an unfavorable situation.
If they block, you get small chip damage but an unfavorable situation.- loses to reversal lariat (well, it can be safe jump-able, but it’s a 1-frame window; extremely hard) and EX spd.
Ok, lets go:
Demon Dive: It will stuff dive kicks depending on the Angle. The zangief player can time the lariat from different times and also from crouching to standing position, this will also change the starting hitbox of the move. Still, if he has no Ex bar, i think you should go for it.
Demon Throw: Yes, it will grab him out of both Lariats, try to press throw a little higher than you would normally do.
As for safe jumps and ops palms i dont suggest you to do them as true os or true safe jumps. Try to condition him on getting scared and than go for the Srk when you think he will lariat or something like this. Land a little earlier to make him confuse and go for the srk, try to do this usually when you have 2 stocks of ex so that you can cancel out of it and not get killed for a single bad decision.
As for the matchup, if the zangief player doesn’t have U2, you bet your ass you can rush him down as hell on his wakeup. Just teach him to block first by going into dives, once he tries to lariat, go for the throw, if he tries to espace in any manner, go for the srk like i said. If he starts to use backdash, be very careful with your decisions, especially if he has a Ultra 1 loaded, then, try to go for options that wont be punished by a backdash like 95% of attempts.
And against Guile, I don’t even df dive kick much any more. Only off of like an EX hadouken knockdown.
You can just do a df throw/palm mixup and it’s a 50/50 and both options are safe from flash kick if you space and time your df correctly.
An example is forward throw, double dash, slight wait, mk demon flip palm/throw. Both options should be safe from flash kick and beat focus attack. Throw will beat block whereas palm will beat backdash (you can either option select sweep or a reaction standing hk to get a full combo). Also, if they block the palm, they have no flash kick charge (unlike when they block a df dive kick). Also, note that the opponent can walk forward under the df throw, but they cannot against the palm.
Another setup is after tatsu to sweep within close range (example st. hp xx tatsu, or point blank 2-3 jabs xx tatsu). Wait a while after the sweep, and then do a mk df. You may need to walk forward slightly before the mk df if you are too far. You want to aim directly above their head (try even aiming slightly behind their head) for the demon flip. Outcomes should be the same as the forward throw setup above if done correctly.
Thanks a lot guys, that was really helpful. So in your opinion, what is the best way to approach Zangief’s wake up? Like for example, against a Boxer, it’s very clear what the best move to do is: safe-palm OS’d with sweep; after conditioning him, you can go for demon flip throw to mix him up and so on. Against Gief, is there a system with which you should approach him?
It’s a total guessing game revolved around if you think he’s gonna reversal lariat or not. There’s no safe option that will beat everything.
If you think he is gonna reversal lariat, then df throw or df dive kick.
If you don’t think he is but is gonna do some reversal (backdash, EX hand), then df palm OS U1/U2.
If you think he’s just gonna block, then df throw.
Yeahh, it’s really risky. If you wanna be safe, just do fireball chip damage or jump tatsu out of the corner.
On Gief: I find it very difficult to avoid trading if I go for DFDK although I think it’s possible if you hit dead centre of the lariat.
Also, found this on the Fei Long pages. Could be useful 
"Akuma
If you’re fighting a defensive akuma, use your fast dash speed and long distance HP rekkas to punish air fireballs and get under them. Stay on top of him and pressure pressure pressure. Once he’s in the corner, keep a careful eye out for teleports. Go for the cross up and watch closely to see if he tries to teleport. If he does, punish with rekkas. If you want more reward, simply threaten him on wake up in the corner, then back up and watch for the teleport. If he doesn’t, resume pressure. If he does teleport, simply walk up to him and cl.HP > rekkas to knock off close to 40% of his life for one mistake.
EX chicken wing can be used to counter his ground fireballs. Overall I think this is a difficult fight for akuma as long as you pressure. If the akuma decides to be aggressive, just fight him like you would Ryu or Ken. Once again, the key is to pressure and force him to take a risk with a teleport or DP and then punish him heavily for it."
Good stuff, Laughter. A few more things I gleaned from perusing the Fei Long forums:
-Mid range is a bad spot for Akuma to be in - you either want to be far away (zoning/runaway style) or in his face (rushdown style).
-Fireball zoning is fairly effective on Fei, but once he gets a bar of meter he can EX CW through a fireball
-Poorly spaced air fireballs are punishable with Rekka or even forward dash>BnB - LP Air FBs are useful for forward jumps
-Fei can o/s a CW into a jump-in to punish backwards teleports. (I’m not sure if CW auto-corrects, but if it does, it will punish any teleport)
-Fei has a dangerous setup off of a backthrow, which consists of Back Throw>Step Back>Jump In. Timed correctly, the jump-in will stuff LP DP and cause HP DP to whiff. MP DP will hit, however - not sure about EX DP.
A few tidbits from the Gen forums…
-Air fireballs are punishable by Super or Ultra, unless they’re basically point blank TK air FBs.
-Tatsu and EX Tatsu are punishable by Super or Ultra 1
-Jump back air fireballs are punishable with roll
I don’t expect many have spent any appreciable time ‘in the lab’ on the Gen matchup, but does anyone have any favorite option selects on wakeup?
i know u2 is mostly really used for the rufus match but is there any other times where u2 can b beneficial
Some people also like to use it vs boxer…other than that, it sucks balls.
I use it VS Rufus, Dudley, Zangief, Akuma, Ryu, Ken, Sagat and switch between U1 and U2 for Balrog.
U2 VS Balrog as an OS on his wakeup and you can reactively smash out a lot of dash punches.
VS Zangief, Ryu and Ken I use it in combos. VS Sagat from cross-up tatsu and in combos. VS Rufus to punish messiah kick stuff. VS Dudley to bait out machine gun blow and in combos. VS Akuma in combos and to punish teleports, tatsus and his U1.
For most other matchups I use U1. Sometimes I’ll opt for U1 VS Ryu if he’s focus happy or a bit jumpy.
If you can comfortably combo into U2, its a great Ultra in my opinion. A problem is with the chars it whiffs on where this use doesn’t help it at all. Namely VS Honda, Chun, Vega, Bison, Blanka, Ibuki. Worth nothing is that these whiffs are fixed in AE giving it a more universal application though you’ll still have matchups where u1 is just plain better (such as VS Blanka, Chun, etc).
I strongly feel not enough Akuma players give U2 enough of a chance. Key is in execution and being able to combo into it but at the same time U1 is a very versatile Ultra and thankfully Akuma’s game is just fine without landing an Ultra anyway.
U2 is also good vs cody as it beats wake up ex-zonk
I forgot to add Akuma (was pretty abvious) and Ken (to make your teleports safe from his U2 and ex tatsu)
Vs. Dudley U1 is SO much better…first, he has a great focus…second, raging demon can punish hk and ex mgb on block…which means that if he mis reads one of your air fireballs or simply drops a link, he’s going to lose half his stamina.
Why U1 vs Ryu??? The damage it does in combos usually sucks anyways. I’ll give it a try vs Sagat since i almost never happen to land U1 vs him, thanks for the tip
OS ex tatsu beats EVERYTHING cody will do on wakeup, ultra 2 and ex zonk included. No need to use U2. Cody actually has a good focus and with U1 you can also bait and punish ex zonk on block for a shitload of damage
I assume you mean U2.
It beats his OS hk tatsu giving you a free teleport option and its also ideal in combos provided you can read his fireball game well.
Like I said, I’ll use U1 VS Ryu if the opponent is jumpy or focus happy or perhaps uses c.hk for footsies at bad ranges.