UMVC3 SRK Tier List/Theory Discussion. (NEW THREAD NOW AVAILABLE)

WALSRU · 2012-01-20T01:54:51.000Z

high speed tackle don’t work like its advertised

its only incincible to projectiles once it starts up and it dont start up speedy

Add to that Morrigan can fly/unfly react to the superflash and be safe unless you’re right in her face, and like quicks said that can get stuffed too

Nashdenate · 2012-01-20T01:55:44.000Z

I don’t see how this is a major problem personally. Guess I’m just spitballing here, but theoretically a character like Nova could react to Morrigan + Missiles with Speed tackle, blow through all projectiles, X-Factor and kill both characters. You could counterpick hidden missiles with your own hidden missiles, only using a character that can also dominate/stay above Morrigan in the air (Firebrand, Zero, etc.) or a character with a tracking teleport to disoriente the player. And having say Morrigan’s meter build assist along with a strong DHC option, then pretty much avoid the obstacle course till you hit 2 bars free, then reaction beam super Doom, DHC to Hailstorm or Sent Force and make Doom bleed.

The thing is morrigans not gonna be on the ground, shes gonna be in the air so you’re not gonna have the ability to hit them both with a rocket. Plus morrigan can make herself safe every time she throws a fireball anyway so it’s a huge gamble which likely is just gonna be a waste of meter. I do think super skrull can deal with it because inferno nullifys anything around it so you could probably derp smash and inferno them to oblivion.

DevilJin_01 · 2012-01-20T01:56:17.000Z

Overall I’m happy Morrigan is good though. I always felt she was really slept on and just needed that assist that backs up her astral vision. One of the main complaints about astral vision in Vanilla that people had was the long start up. Fireballs + Missiles = what start up?

I knew that super was cheap mode with the right assist since you have to deal with fireballs shooting you in the back which kills any spacing game you can normally try. It’s practically a dream come true compared to Wolvie/Akuma and Wesker/Haggar/Phoenix.

FlyingVe · 2012-01-20T01:57:51.000Z

What about Chris Geezus? I feel like he has the best Morrigan team free. Doom + Akuma assist can still stomp on fools and Doom can kill people without burning too much meter for Akuma who can shoop da whoop on everybody else.

Omni’s team is very creative and powerful from the front but it’s lacking powerful neutral assists and only really scary from the front. At least Masta CJ’s team has disruptah to control neutral even though his team is only really scary from the front. Dark Wesker is durp but tourney winning scary not so much.

I haven’t seen him play it much (or JJJ), so I can’t really speak on it.

My point is not that Morrigan isn’t a good character, it’s that I think she is getting alot of press because she’s something that counters the type of play that the current meta-game is build around.

If you’ll remember in early MvC3 (I realize early is early, but that doesn’t relate to my point), there were quite a few lame style teams, many of which actually included Morrigan (Flash Metroid most notably). But people adjusted their styles and teams to shut it down. Afterwards the meta went through several other phases including kill Wolverine and killing Phoenix. Now fast forward to now. We have a metagame dominated by fairly basic teleporter type characters like Dorm and Wesker, Wolverine is still around, and Hawkeye is making waves. Guess who Morrigan can give some problems?

Nitro_Noodlez · 2012-01-20T02:02:21.000Z

Was she building meter in clone mode in Vanilla? Didn’t her fireball game receive noticeable improvements in terms of durability/speed/improved chip damage?

Morrigan always built meter during Astral Vision in Vanilla, and the durability on her fireballs were the same. The only buff to them was the hitstun and damage increase. Faster flight activation helps it too. Honestly Morrigan’s gameplay hasn’t really changed from Vanilla. In fact, back in early Vanilla days someone showed some videos of how effective Astral Vision + Missiles were. The problem was that it was Vanilla and, going by this thread, nobody knew she existed in that game. She is still significantly improved from Vanilla and actually hurts you now when she hits you, as well as stealing your meter in the process.

DevilJin_01 · 2012-01-20T02:03:55.000Z

We have a metagame dominated by fairly basic teleporter type characters like Dorm and Wesker, Wolverine is still around, and Hawkeye is making waves. Guess who Morrigan can give some problems?

I think Morrigan + Missiles clear counters the concept of Wesker pretty much. He doesn’t have any projectile invincible moves and his projectile “counter” is hella shitty especially since it only works against grounded projectiles. Wesker was pretty much touted to have problems with Morrigan since Vanilla so I don’t like it with him. If he had a tracking teleport maybe but non tracking port vs. Morrigan + Missiles? He’s gotta go be a family man. He’s another “gets 10 seconds to win” start of round or dies.

Dorm can work but I feel it only really works if he’s stocked with meter. Morrigan+Missiles can handle start of round Dorm fine IMO since he takes time to rev up while Morrigan + Missiles…does not in comparison. Even Masta CJ is having problems with that shit now especially since people are just air grabbing the shit out of teleport + assist now.

Wolverine start of round…he gets like a couple chances to rush in and if it don’t work he’s gone. Rushdown characters start of round are probably ideal IMO because if it works it works great but if you screw up you’re fucked.

Hawkeye is probably one of the better options but…it’s still start of round Hawkeye.

All of the stuff that would REALLY work so far that I’ve put together needs meter built for it. All of the stuff that works otherwise is basically guess rushdown within first 10 seconds of the match and if you screw up you lose.

FlyingVe · 2012-01-20T02:05:21.000Z

My point is that morrigan does well in the current meta-game, and I think that’s causing people to overrate her abilities a bit.

Also, what NitroNoodles said.

DevilJin_01 · 2012-01-20T02:06:31.000Z

My point is that morrigan does well in the current meta-game, and I think that’s causing people to overrate her abilities a bit.

Also, what NitroNoodles said.

I honestly don’t see what’s going to change in the meta game (other than Phoenix coming back to be a force) that will really put a dent in this shit honestly.

It’s Marvel so any day anything can lose but this is going to be a big part of the meta game for a long time. It’s on that Wesker/Wolvie/Akuma stuff where it’s just always going to be a factor now.

quicks · 2012-01-20T02:12:55.000Z

the main reason why most people didnt play morrigan is because her damage sucked , even if you glitched into her

n that was in a game with easier tod’s that this one

FlyingVe · 2012-01-20T02:13:07.000Z

I honestly don’t see what’s going to change in the meta game (other than Phoenix coming back to be a force) that will really put a dent in this shit honestly.

It’s Marvel so any day anything can lose but this is going to be a big part of the meta game for a long time. It’s on that Wesker/Wolvie/Akuma stuff where it’s just always going to be a factor now.

Any metagame dominated by Wesker is going to change eventually…

Firebranded · 2012-01-20T02:15:03.000Z

I say Firebrand is A Tier for the following reasons.

He relies on an Assist for an approach. Brand + Drones is godlike but Firebrand needs a partner to get in or he’s stuck with high/low attempts instead of left/rights. Yes, we can always throw out the random demon missile M and get lucky but people catch on that firebrand will always end up behind them and they can punish him. I believe that upper screen hell-dive cross-ups are too risky because if the opponent moves into an inopportune location then you’re stuck in the air doing a punishable spitfire.

1A. Luminous Body is an effective tool at closing the distance, but once people start realizing that it’s Firebrand’s only effective midscreen hyper, people could start reaction countering. Dorm’s Chaotic Flame, proton cannon, Gimlet, Hadoken/Dark Hadoken , Round Harvest, Bionic Arm, Phantom Dance, Maximum Vergil, Finger Lasers (close quarters) Million Dollars (and var.), But luckily since most of the instant counters are ground based Firebrand can activate Luminous in flight and avoid them. But the bad thing is that the ones that can hit him anywhere are used by very popular and common characters.

-Jam Session/Vajara/Zoning + Missiles hampers his approach. Since all three of these are common assists Firebrand may face some trouble.

Air Bon Voyage can be chicken blocked, it’s not the broken move everyone thinks it is. Yes, it has high priority but air advancing guard negates the frame advantage as always. Ground bon voyage is so unsafe that you would be stupid to adv guard it because firebrand is at -30. But then again a pinning assist would solve this issue. But the Assist call off of a blocked ground voyage usually results in a happy birthday, especially with invulnerable start-up hypers. This is what I’ve experienced, possibly it was lag but I’d like feedback from Chrisis or another character expert.
Unless you do the snap loop and strictly conform your team to 3 characters (Firebrand, Morrigan (Harmonizer), and Skrull (Tenderizer), Firebrand will require a reset for a kill, and with all resets there is a chance he could be hit and then annihilated in one combo. A small point but a point nonetheless.
His Zoning is a nuisance, not really a threat if you have a character who can upper screen like Trish.

In summation, Firebrand is a very good character and a solid A-tier cast member but once he’s figured out he won’t seem all that “S-tier”.
He’s a deadly threat in the right hands but he has a few flaws that will become apparent in the coming months. I’m 100% sure Chrisis will disagree with me when I say he’s top 15 although not top 5.

My list goes

Zero,C.Viper, Dante, Wesker,Doom,Strider, Dorm, Vergil, Spencer, Magneto, Firebrand, Hawkeye, Trish, Taskmaster, Wolverine

DevilJin_01 · 2012-01-20T02:16:02.000Z

Any metagame dominated by Wesker is going to change eventually…

True. Let us see.

Chrisis · 2012-01-20T02:18:03.000Z

I dunno how Dacidbro fights but most of the morrigans I played like to be at SJ Height, so S.M range is out of the question. Thunderbolt becomes ineffective once she manages to super jump and chuck fireballs which is fairly easy, and the threat of Vortex is still there but knowing the effective range where it can be used means they can simply bait it, unfly, and escape to the other side of the screen.

Multi lock is used specifically to get her out of the sky. The orbs have low durability but travel at awkward angles allowing them to dodge the fireballs. You can also charge it, then super jump above all the plasma and release for a horizontal aerial tracking projectile which Dante severely lacks.

Teleports again are under the assumption that she’s at SJ height. Dante clearly wins the ground game, so i’m not sure why she would stay grounded when she can just call doom and take to the air where her options are a lot better than most characters. In general, naked teleports on a grounded opponent are very risky so thats not what I was recommending, though teleporting on reaction to a fireball>fly is fairly easy and a good way to get in if she makes the mistake to not call an assist before.

Stinger+Assist(beam or sentinel) clears a lot of shit, blows up assist calls and is safe even on whiff so there is really very little risk involved

As for Jam Session, the reason it’s good in this matchup is the fact that it limits her aerial space a lot as well as absorbing some of the fireballs and missiles. If she’s only shooting from above and doesn’t have a horizontal assist(beam/arrows/drones/tatsu), you can abuse this move shamelessly.

6/4 matchup for me, DT doesn’t change much here.

If she likes super jump height that’s exactly when Vortex becomes really strong, it gives you a free way to get under her and force her to eat free 50/50s while she falls regardless of whether she tries to dash or not. When you have vortex if she does an air fireball game that means you get to have an ambiguous left right into scary set ups with your assist available unless you used it to clear missiles. If you get to place yourself under someone for free like that especially when her options for covering that spot against Dante are non existent previously mentioned stand and Jump Bs, acid rain, jam session, etc. it dramatically effects the match up, especially in situations like missiles where your fast horizontal movement makes the tracking fail miserably.

Good to know on multi-lock, I’d just assumed that the durability issue would screw it, especially since Morrigan has both angled and horizontal projectiles. to cover those possible positions. I’ll have to study this more. Though Dante doesn’t lack it as much when you’re in DT and can do flight with air plays which although not 100% horizontal can be used as an analogue especially with how you can move around and fire it.

If Dante clearly wins the ground game then he clearly wins the game since with DT he gets to force her to deal with his ground game by having an absolutely free way to get below her where he also wins same vertical or horizontal plane should be good for Dante. At SJ height is where the Doom missiles are especially an issue for teleportation though since they’ll track there pretty easily. o.o Agreed about nake teleports being ass and almost never a good idea. You should not ever teleport on reaction to fireball fly however. Air trick is 22 frames to start then recover, Soul fist + fly cancel is also 22 frames to start then recover which means to be even you need to have 0 frame reactions which can’t happen and to even be safe you need a 3 frame reaction which means you should be able to DP almost every jab in the game on reaction. Pair this with the fact that her necessary reaction to punish is normally 20ish frames thanks to the audio cue and as posted in my last post she can option select a DP so she doesn’t need to react at all since it will come out if you teleported, and she throws out a jab which she can cancel into a special if you didn’t teleport.

Stinger and assist is definitely good, but it’s far from safe on whiff, she can super on reaction, is over the top of plasma beam from flight, and is too far away for drones to be an immediate issue. There are a few things that make it near safe, drones and beams don’t cover it in that regard.

For Jam session agreed, but if she’s in that position she needs to fall into Dante’s mix up anyways and it’s not particularly scarier than that.

Here are some primary reasons I feel DT changes the match up:
Dramatic increase in air mobility gets rid of his issues in fighting her air to air and getting around her spam.
Flight mode especially when paired with air play lets him dominate a lot of positions she previously had an advantage.
Vortex lets him get to the spots that are worst for her even if she has something covering that position (Such as the beam, arrows, etc assist you mentioned earlier)
Thunderbolt gives him a free way to stop assists based on audio cues regardless of his current position, this prevents things like missiles arrows or drones from being a problem.
There are fewer locations that Morrigan can control Dante giving him more free reign to get to the locations where he can control her.

I agree that without DT the match up is 6/4ish but when you abuse his DT tools she’s a much easier match up.

FlyingVe · 2012-01-20T02:18:48.000Z

True. Let us see.

Yep, and who knows who it will favor. All I know is there is no way that Viper, Zero, and Dante won’t still be the god-kings of bullshit.

WALSRU · 2012-01-20T02:21:00.000Z

Zero, C.Viper, Dante, Wesker,Doom,Strider, Dorm, Vergil,** Spencer**, Magneto, Firebrand

Man you really lost me putting those three in front of Firebrand. We’ll see I guess.

Nitro_Noodlez · 2012-01-20T02:21:46.000Z

the main reason why most people didnt play morrigan is because her damage sucked , even if you glitched into her

n that was in a game with easier tod’s that this one

Yeah, her damage was really subpar in Vanilla. I just wish more Morrigan players would make more use of her fireball loops in this game like Omni does. They actually hurt and aren’t that hard to do.

DevilJin_01 · 2012-01-20T02:22:55.000Z

Yeah, her damage was really subpar in Vanilla. I just wish more Morrigan players would make more use of her fireball loops in this game like Omni does. They actually hurt and aren’t that hard to do.

When she’s tough as nails to land a clean hit on any way I guess people just get lazy.

Firebranded · 2012-01-20T02:23:57.000Z

Man you really lost me putting those three in front of Firebrand. We’ll see I guess.

Wesker is just wesker, I can’t argue with it.
Dormmamu is crazy, I used to think he wasn’t all that but I’ve seen the absurd shit he can do.
Spencer - one hit is all it takes.

Chrisis · 2012-01-20T02:24:46.000Z

Yep, and who knows who it will favor. All I know is there is no way that Viper, Zero, and Dante won’t still be the god-kings of bullshit.

All of which when properly assisted blow up Morrigan regardless of her assist.*

Nitro_Noodlez · 2012-01-20T02:25:13.000Z

When she’s tough as nails to land a clean hit on any way I guess people just get lazy.

That’s true, but she does have her share fair of matchups where she has to go in. Dormammu being one of them. Not sure how it’s changed, but it was easily her worst one in Vanilla.