I dunno. She gets countered hard by Hawkeye and Strange, as long as they have meter.
Yes, she does…
now she has a couple bad machups… but who doesn’t?
you’ll have to be even more careful against Strange and Hawkeye and Strider assist than you’d be against everyone else, unless someone plays Hawkeye, Strange and Strider as a team, you can always use your other 2 characters to get rid of her bad matchups anyway.
Phoenix is still VERY powerful, and can run through entire teams as she always could… but this time, this task will be a harder one and she has a couple of bad matchups that will make her change her plan a little.
Most people don’t die in a single hit from their bad match ups. I would also actually put Skrull as a bad match up for her now, and not just a scary as hell match.
The reason people are saying that Phoenix is heavily countered by Hawkeye and Strange are their supers punishing something that she does and that punish will not kill her right away as none of these supers do enough damage to kill her in one hit without xfactor or a proper DHC.
Still, you cannot say a character is bad because of a couple bad matchups, unless those bad matchups end up dominating the entire metagame…
Phoenix will be fine while people still fear Dark Phoenix and play in a sub optimal way trying to get rid of her.
She will not dominate anymore, probably won’t even be among the top tier characters (although I think this is a real possibility she is even now), but surely can be competitive
Gimlet causes enough hit stun you can DHC to almost any hyper in the game and kill. And it “punishes” anything. Spell of Vishanti is 2 frames slower on start up than Gimlet, that’s the difference of punishing a jab whiff on prediction instead of reaction. The bigger issue with Strange would be Seven rings. Dark Phoenix only has one button that won’t trigger it, and people just don’t raw S with her. I’m almost completely certain Hawkeye will end up on an absurd amount of teams.
Do you guys still put her at the end of teams, cause i think i have a better chance of winning if she is 2nd or even first. Raise 2-3 bars with first character and switch in phoenix and wreck havoc til she dies… then play as normal.
Also, I run Strange nova and phoenix, strange for mixups and using minimum bar, Nova uses no bar and does excellent damage, and phoenix to finish off and maybe go dark if i have at least 3 bars… thinking of changing the order tho
well, in theory it’s impossible to say you’re wrong…
but that same theory in vanilla’s first weeks said that Phoenix would not be viable due to low health…welll… we saw what that turned out…
I think she’s still quite viable, but only time will tell.
I thought I could play any team I wanted but it turns out I’ll have to go Dark phoenix team to make the cut, hope they dont nerf her in the next patch ( if there is one ).
Yes she only has one move that won’t trigger it but the problem is similar to the Wesker and Taskmaster idea of countering her feathers was, they only work if she is far enough for the counter to catch the feathers, if she’s close enough, the physical attack will cancel out the counter. jS is good since the flame hits way before the feathers come out. Burn out beak or d.H works as well at super jump hight since the feathers are left behind and you can cancel it into flght to have the feathers trigger the Seven Rings, and stay high enough to stay away from the beam.TK overdrive is also an option since its a physical attack. This plus TK Shot H could be used to bait out the seven rings since they expect a projectile.
As for Gimlet and spell of Vishanti, Phoenix and Dark Phoenix’s only option is Phoenix Rage. It swollows up the arrow for gimlet and since she’s invincible for the start up frames she dosen’t take a hit from spell of Vishanti, but you have to use it right as the game starts up again from Dr. Strange’s animation. But of course, it leaves her open to a DHC unless your willing to do a DHC yourself.
I’m not saying she’s not viable, I am saying you will probably need a back up team without her in case of her bad match ups. It’s very hard to take care of the characters that will be problems to her while holding onto meter, and unlike vanilla you can’t use 2-3 bars to kill problems over the course of the match and expect to get them back.
Ya know, I never really had problems landing Tiger Uppercut H on Phoenix. That said, Seven rings has 15 frames of invincible preflash start up. You really can hit it on reaction to even her jS, be invincible for the active frames of the S, and catch a feather anyway.
true but its better then normal attacks since the feathers come out ahead of the physical hit. Then again TK overdrive may be the only way to go. But Dark Phoenix’s game is quick, up close battle so I don’t think players would mind S then air combo then OTG to finish him or TK overdrive then combo. Plus seven rings has a ton of recovery, so it begs for a physical hit once it whiffs.
**“Phoenix is no longer top tier”
to quote bill of left 4 dead fame,
*Oh bull fucking horse shit.
***I just made a comeback not 5 minutes ago with phoenix (base) after being near perfected with some bastard running an x-factored-zero/wesker no sunglasses, and I won the entire match, only going DP the last 25% on his strider. This isn’t rare, its a rather constant and very much reminiscent of vanilla.
Everytime I hear people talk about what Phoenix’s spot is on the tier list I always want to laugh. I called it when Killian spoke of a character that “scared” him and most people went,
*c tier, at best. Dat as…health! lol!
cue ominous symphonic suite, thousands of MVC3 online matches of CANT CONTROL IT, EVO2011
*Then the ocean was dried with the saltiness from the excruciating burn wounds gaping out of millions of souls that required (how many?) nerfs, and …
she’s still just as viable. I doubt she’ll make evo again, but I can’t think of a single character in the -entire- game that comes close to her besides, perhaps, Wesker at his current state.
Dr. Strange and Hawkeye have options?
I still don’t understand this. People said this about Akuma in vanilla and all I read that to be was,
**Beam spam until dead
**Hell, that’s been pretty much everyone’s go-to strategy since day 1. Forget the anti-phoenix tech.
The only reason I see any tier change for Phoenix is the basis of MVC is a strong team synergy, at which point the game mechanics nerfs are far more damaging, but I still dont’ think to the proportion people are complaining about The “pace” in UMVC3 I feel acts as a decent counterbalance to that, to a degree.
Meme generator all Dark Phoenix does is mashing c. LLLLLLLLL teleport LLLLLLLLPerhaps the same can be said of ALL MVC3 characters. I can’t think of a single character (ok, almost not one) that doesn’t have some gimmick to their combos/methods of cracking a defense that doesn’t sound cheap on paper. Hell, half of the 100% combos I see now are still the same exact wesker samurai edge shit I’m used to from vanilla. Heck, probably my biggest complaint about the versus series, a lot of dealing with “same shit” while you grab a cup of coffee.
But I digress, its that intensity that makes the game fun, however skewed.
Regarding the nerfs, as I mentioned/as mentioned in the thread, the most damning nerfs to phoenix are still the TAC meter nerf and health. Like someone mentioned earlier, I didn’t think the latter would matter that much as Phoenix has always been fairly close to “any bnb combo=dead” but its gotten to the point some characters don’t even need to fucking bother with launcher and just x-factor LMH to death.
Akuma beams don’t make it impossible to press any button ever. While they start up fast, they have travel time, and don’t hit in a 360 degree arc around Akuma. You can’t bait a gimlet without fake button presses, and that needs to be done in person. You either have the meter to Phoenix Rage that shit, and leave your self open for a potential DHC anyway, or you eat it.
Also: since it is a team game, if it does come to pass that Phoenix is too team gimping to use, then yes, that does in fact make her not top tier. It leaves her a bullshit broken character, but tier placement is decided by overall value and performance on a team, not individual character power. Just do yourselves a favor, and learn a back up team now, in case it is needed. It may not be, that remains to be seen so far.
i just TAC before they can get me… i take their bar if they have any, then hit them up until I lose my first character, then i start hoarding bar. cause even if i don’t have 5 bars by the time Phoenix comes out, if u pop x factor on regular phoenix she gains bar like crazy. ur bound to have Dark phoenix assuming u can roll ur face across the controller. yeah its a little harder, but nevertheless Phoenix is still a huge threat. with air x factor it makes her an even bigger threat. X factor cancel into teleport is too beast.
Also, now u have to be exceptionally good with ur other teammates if u even want to have a chance. which i think is fine.
Phoenix is just a specialty character now. Top players will run her and still make her what should effectively be S tier (when it pans out), but it will require work now that only the specialists of her will make the most of. The fact that she will have to be backed up by characters that can spend long periods of time without getting hit (due to her dying to snap backs) limits the amount of characters she can be used with now also.
she doesn’t have to die to snapbacks… when they snap her in use a bar to make her safe… because we all know they will try and mix her up on coming in. plus after phoenix rage they are across the screen, either hard tag or DHC… its not that hard… if ur smart u can build ur meter back up again… meter building is not universal for all characters, and their are a lot of characters that build more meter than others… So being a specialty character or not all you have to be is smart when u play her…
Well a little over a week from UMvC3 release and I’m still using Phoenix, it’s gonna be a while before I’m good enough with a new 3rd character to be up to speed with the many hours I have invested in my Phoenix team synergy. I definitely agree that once you become Dark Phoenix, she’s still more than strong enough to decimate an entire team which is all you need.
However, reliably and consistenly getting those 5 bars every time is undeniably more difficult. Also now when you get snapped in even a dropped half-ass combo is enough to KO Phoenix, not to mention that many hyper combos kill her instantly. In MvC3 I could bring in Phoenix with 4 bars and usually safely build the last bar without her dying, now if Phoenix comes in with 4.75 bars she still might not go Dark.
Right now I’m only a 7th Lord so Phoenix is still effective against most people I play, though I’m pretty sure that against 4th Lord and higher skill level Phoenix effectiveness will go down too much, I plan to have a replacement ready by then. A lot of people try to be internet forum warriors by talking big like they’re so good they can still use Phoenix, so can I, but the truth is I’m not winning quite as much. I also see way fewer Phoenixes online and virtually none at tournaments so far. Also the few times i’ve played other Phoenix players online so far, my observation is that man she’s easy to kill now, even as Dark Phoenix I can just have Doom throw out a couple of Photon Arrays which is a weak hyper combo at a distance, and still she’s done (ok maybe some hidden missiles too to seal the deal).
Has anyone else realized that us phoenix players can take advantage of the system of TAC’s just like our opponent can. They think that we will always go for down aerial exchanges so why not go for sideways exchanges to steal their meter and prevent them from snapbacks. I mean it makes really good logic. And it especially works against dr. strange and hawkeye teams as well.
From my experience, teams revolving around Hawkeye and Strange will often anticipate a side aerial exchange, giving you some breathing room for unpredictability.
From what i’ve seen from playing w/ her against my friends and online, she’s still really good. Its a lot harder to use her now for sure, but Dark Phoenix is still a threat and Phoenix factor aids your battery characters. You can still use point-battery character / assist / Phoenix and succeed in this game.
I’m using Dante / Frank West / Phoenix.