Ultra changes (location test)

[Vegaman]

As moonchilde said. Its good for tagging jumps. Particularly against people who try to air to air wall dives.

And I can use it on reaction to most fireballs. Guile’s and DJ’s are the only 2 that come to mind I can’t react to.

Don’t write off a move just because you’re incapable of or don’t know how to use it. Its not meant to be spammed. It’s meant to have a calculated, specific use. The only move Vega should have removed is close standing short.

The difference is that Vega gains the ability to poke with a good poke at new ranges. With SHC removed he gains nothing.

As far as worse moves? Honda and Balrog’s U2, Guys df+HK (never even seen the move used in a match), Ryu’s U2, non EX versions of ibuki’s jump kick, non EX versions of running bear grab, non EX versions of SBK, Dan’s super taunt, Makoto’s super… I can keep going but I think you get the idea. And I’ll admit there may be a couple listed that are debatable but the fact of the matter is that SHC isn’t any more useless than any of these other moves.

First of all, what’s up with that douchy tone? No need for that, really.

Second, what makes you think I’m spamming out SHC or even want it to be spammable? It’s the very opposite.

Third, I have used it to tag jumps or to anti-projectile. There are other uses too, like a very occasional corner escape or a cross-up the way Bison uses his torpedo to cross-up wakeups. So we can refrain from the “you’re incapable” stuff. However, ALL of the uses for SHC is very situational. If you watch a tournament, I can guarantee you that during each fight, you will se EVERY character use each of their special moves atleast once. The exception is of course SHC. You might see it once every five-ten fight or so (if even that). I just don’t want something near useless lying around in my arsenal waiting to be accidentally activated and me getting killed as a result.

And fourth, obviously I’m comparing SHC to other special moves, not ultras or command moves. And with that said, regular SHC is IMO worse than Ibukis up kick or Zangiefs bear grab. And ex version is definitely worse than Ibukis ex upkick or Zangiefs ex bear grab.

With that said, I do agree that clLK needs to go. It’s a terrible move.

No more douchy than you spouting off to remove a move (a stupid suggestion) I actually use based on exaggerations of it being useless.

Situational doesn’t mean useless. I can go along with worthless since it adds little to no value to the character or strategy. But useless is flat out wrong.

If you still have accidental SHC after neg edge is removed I suggest you work on your execution.

You’re entitled to your opinion about removing SHC. But cut the bullshit reasons.

You don’t want it accidentally coming out. Leave it at that because its the only argument that makes any sense.

[Gross_Indecency]

I could just support the removal of SHC because it comes out at hideous times because of negative edge. But ex.shc makes it impossible for me to support its removal.

Seriously, is it a very hard thing to turn off negative edge? For the developers, technically? Does anyone know this?

[Prof]

I don’t get negative shc, but. It’s a pretty crappy move.

Cs.lk start proximity should just be reduced. I imagine it exists because of just how good s.lk is, but there’s simply too many deadzones (where cs.lk will come out but completely whiff) and combo impediments (where at max st.lk range, cr.lp whiffs on follow up) with how it is now.

[Haztlan]

I could just support the removal of SHC because it comes out at hideous times because of negative edge. But ex.shc makes it impossible for me to support its removal.

Seriously, is it a very hard thing to turn off negative edge? For the developers, technically? Does anyone know this?

Nah, easy as fuck.
I can remove it here in my PC in like 20 seconds.

[Claw_Strike]

If possible, just remove Medium version of SHC so it won’t appear when I mess up the link of Cr.Mk —>EX FBA

[pedoviejo]

As moonchilde said. Its good for tagging jumps. Particularly against people who try to air to air wall dives.

And I can use it on reaction to most fireballs. Guile’s and DJ’s are the only 2 that come to mind I can’t react to.

Don’t write off a move just because you’re incapable of or don’t know how to use it. Its not meant to be spammed. It’s meant to have a calculated, specific use. The only move Vega should have removed is close standing short.

The difference is that Vega gains the ability to poke with a good poke at new ranges. With SHC removed he gains nothing.

As far as worse moves? Honda and Balrog’s U2, Guys df+HK (never even seen the move used in a match), Ryu’s U2, non EX versions of ibuki’s jump kick, non EX versions of running bear grab, non EX versions of SBK, Dan’s super taunt, Makoto’s super… I can keep going but I think you get the idea. And I’ll admit there may be a couple listed that are debatable but the fact of the matter is that SHC isn’t any more useless than any of these other moves.

First of all, what’s up with that douchy tone? No need for that, really.

Second, what makes you think I’m spamming out SHC or even want it to be spammable? It’s the very opposite.

Third, I have used it to tag jumps or to anti-projectile. There are other uses too, like a very occasional corner escape or a cross-up the way Bison uses his torpedo to cross-up wakeups. So we can refrain from the “you’re incapable” stuff. However, ALL of the uses for SHC is very situational. If you watch a tournament, I can guarantee you that during each fight, you will se EVERY character use each of their special moves atleast once. The exception is of course SHC. You might see it once every five-ten fight or so (if even that). I just don’t want something near useless lying around in my arsenal waiting to be accidentally activated and me getting killed as a result.

And fourth, obviously I’m comparing SHC to other special moves, not ultras or command moves. And with that said, regular SHC is IMO worse than Ibukis up kick or Zangiefs bear grab. And ex version is definitely worse than Ibukis ex upkick or Zangiefs ex bear grab.

With that said, I do agree that clLK needs to go. It’s a terrible move.

No more douchy than you spouting off to remove a move (a stupid suggestion) I actually use based on exaggerations of it being useless.

Situational doesn’t mean useless. I can go along with worthless since it adds little to no value to the character or strategy. But useless is flat out wrong.

If you still have accidental SHC after neg edge is removed I suggest you work on your execution.

You’re entitled to your opinion about removing SHC. But cut the bullshit reasons.

You don’t want it accidentally coming out. Leave it at that because its the only argument that makes any sense.

BUT THAT’S SO HARD ON PAD. i’VE TRIED WORKING ON IT, AND i SLIDE MY THUMBS SINCE IT’S THE FASTEST WAY TO MOVE FROM BUTTON TO BUTTON. AND GOD DAMN DO I HATE NEGATIVE EDGE. THERE SHOULD BE AN OPTION TO NOT HAVE IT ON A GAME AND PLAYER BASIS.

[Moonchilde]

I swear, lol, people want neg edge gone? You guys are out of your minds. Neg edge is a good thing. This isn’t KoF (although I do appreciate KoF as well, it does things the KoF way, and is not SF.)

If you don’t want to neg edge SHC by accident, then hold down the damn button. Probrem sorved. So do your combo cMK, cMP (hold) and EX FBA when you tap two kicks. It really isn’t hard if you practice, if I can do it, you guys can do it too. My execution sucks. Hell, if you wanted, you could do cMK (hold), cMP (hold) and EX FBA by releasing MK and tapping another kick at the same time sort of like a piano motion.

problem is with u1, not u2. i was just saying how u2 sort of have input leniency and u1 doesn’t. i also would like them to change the priorities to ultra than super. so many times you wanted ultra to come out for specific characters, but because you missed one button by one frame, super comes out…

Oops, my bad @Niah lol. Ok, so you can do U2 easy right? Instead of sliding the lever to df, just slide it to uf. The key is to wait a second once you hit uf and then hit all 3 buttons. Once you get the hang of that then practice sliding to ub instead of uf. I find you can’t neg edge it for some reason or at least it’s not like how I’m used to charging shit. Hell, I have that problem with normal charge moves in SF4, the charging is totally different from ST and I can do charge stuff on neg edge easily in that game. I specifically do d, k, u (neg edge) in ST to do wall dive but in SF4 I have to think a bit more about my charging because that doesn’t work in SF4. Make sure you aren’t doing that by accident. Most of my Ultra failures when it comes to execution is because I am pressing the buttons too soon.

U2 also has huge input leniency, you don’t even have to do the proper command for it, but again the same problem happens to me if I press the buttons too soon. I’ve taught myself to hold up forward and then hit the buttons instead of go db, df, db, df, and db again to charge in case I miss, which seemed to hurt my execution on it in the past. I will also hold the 3k buttons in instead of releasing, seems to work better, too.

[star]

I also do not have a problem with negative edge regarding FBA. Happens very rarely that I get a SHC out of accident.

What happens way more often a mST after a crMK when I wanted to do a RCF. But some commited training room routine taught me to hold the mk button long enough.

I honenstly do not see that as a problem for claw at all.

[Emersion]

I disagree with the sentiment of the negative edge being the players fault.
Its an input helper like the motion shortcuts to give people what they want easier, but the side effect of it is that it might come out unwanted.

If that happens to me in a tournament i can lose a match over something i didnt want to do.
Instead of blaming the player for not holding buttons long enough to fight a function that he does not want to use, give us the option to turn it off.
Shouldnt be hard to implement, i forget if it was injustice or killer instinct, but i believe one of those has the option to turn of negative edge in the button configuration.
That is awesome and how it should be.

But i dont mind either way, ill work with what i get.

Vega is looking good, cant wait for ultra and seeing claws all over the world on stream again, because when i watch streams now, claw usually isnt on them beyond very early stages, sadly

[Niah]

Oops, my bad @Niah lol. Ok, so you can do U2 easy right? Instead of sliding the lever to df, just slide it to uf. The key is to wait a second once you hit uf and then hit all 3 buttons. Once you get the hang of that then practice sliding to ub instead of uf. I find you can’t neg edge it for some reason or at least it’s not like how I’m used to charging shit. Hell, I have that problem with normal charge moves in SF4, the charging is totally different from ST and I can do charge stuff on neg edge easily in that game. I specifically do d, k, u (neg edge) in ST to do wall dive but in SF4 I have to think a bit more about my charging because that doesn’t work in SF4. Make sure you aren’t doing that by accident. Most of my Ultra failures when it comes to execution is because I am pressing the buttons too soon.

like is said previously, my problem is not HITTING the db when i do the df,d,db,b,ub motion part of the ultra, pressing kkk isn’t a big deal. i’m just saying how that part is unforgiving compared to moves like fei’s chicken wings

[Moonchilde]

If you can do db, df, db, df for U2 then why would it be so hard for U1? It’s the same motion you’re only doing ub at the end instead of df. Do you play on stick or pad? If on stick, it’s really easy. Think in square. Charge db, keep the lever on the gate and slide df, still keeping the lever on the gate, slide db again, then use the gate to slide the lever to ub. Just focus on making sure you hit the corners of the gate for the motion, and you should be fine. It also doesn’t need to be input really fast, so you can take your time with it. It’s a really simple move once you think that way. If you play on pad, then I can’t help you because I think playing on pad really sucks especially for charge motions like that.

On the other hand, Fei can do b, f, b to get flame kicks. I mean, wow Totally agreed, lol.

I hope you don’t feel I’m just being obvious or something, you probably know more about the execution in the game than I do. I really do just want to help out a fellow Claw player is all, lol. I was just relating my own execution errors for those, btw, not saying you had the same ones, but maybe the me doing the input too fast was related to you maybe doing the stick motion too fast or possibly pressing the buttons too early causing you to miss one of the motions. I just find it key to do it relaxed and press the buttons after you finish the motions, and of course, make use of the gate. That’s what it’s there for.

[Korbidon]

I think the problem is more the fact you pick Ultra 1 so rarely, you don’t get to practice as much with it as U2.

I mean, the only match I use U1 for is Sim.

[Vegaman]

I also do not have a problem with negative edge regarding FBA. Happens very rarely that I get a SHC out of accident.

What happens way more often a mST after a crMK when I wanted to do a RCF. But some commited training room routine taught me to hold the mk button long enough.

I honenstly do not see that as a problem for claw at all.

Honestly I don’t care about losing or keeping neg edge on SHC. But that shit is too damn lenient. I can do a cMP not push anything press up to jump and if I release mp too early OR too late I get SHC. The input leniency is retarded. Whatever happens to make the move more difficult to come out on button release is fine with me.

Thus problem is extremely pronounced online as well because lag can cause you to hold a charge much longer than normal.

[Niah]

I think the problem is more the fact you pick Ultra 1 so rarely, you don’t get to practice as much with it as U2.

I mean, the only match I use U1 for is Sim.

and viper as well.

the problem with ultra 1 is doing it really fast. when i need to react to things i need it to come out as fast as possible. sure, if i concentrate on the corners i can get it, but that shouldn’t even been the case. going from db,df,db,f is really easy, but if you change it to the backwards chicken wing motion, it’s just easier to miss that db. ending u1 with a uf motion is cake though, because it’s not a chicken wing motion. u2 is a lot easier because i don’t NEED to do EXACTLY f, b,f. i can have the stick in db/df if i wanted to. that’s the leniency. all i’m saying is that vega/guile/deejay/blanka should have some leniency in it’s inputs like everyone else.

[Haztlan]

I also have the “Second DB” problem. It sucks so much!
I can obviously do it for days at training mode, but when it comes to real matches when I react with it super fast EX FBA actually comes out. I get mad salty when that happens.
“Luckily” its only when I try to do U1 to my wall. U1 forward its easier somehow. Go figure…

Anyway: I use U1 against Gouki, Seth, Viper and Dhalsim.

Viper and Dhalsim… no explanation required.

Seth on the other hand… there are a few reasons:
1 - When I picked U2 I always ended up killing myself trying to AA him with it… then it happens that he used dive kick and I’m done. Obviously this is not a reason to make me choose U1 over U2, its just my fault. But when put together with these others 2 things… it makes the choice easier.
2 - If I have U1 loaded the Hyakaretsukyaku Fireball + Teleport is hindered. Same thing with U1 Fireball + Teleport.
3 - Seth will usually not try to zone you with fireballs when you are at jump in range. His projectile is not exactly good and the risk is too big. Its more likely that he will try to tandem you in footsies than try to zone you out. So U2 does not have that much use against fireballs here anyway. While U1 can actually deal with the fullscreen fireball + wall jump.

I do lack the stHP on block punish from some ranges. Also I can’t react to focus that are held longer than they should be. But… oh well, I’ll wait to see the numbers of the damage of Claw’s Double Ultra. If its good enough I’ll use it against him.

And Gouk… oh well, he is the reason that I made this post. I love using U1 against him. Yeah, its kinda weird, but:
1 - Its the BESTEST thing against Zanku Hadoukens EVER! Just do the going forward version and bam. ~500 of damage to Gouki’s 850 stamina. We don’t actually have amazing answers to randoms Jump Zanku. There are situational ones… but they really are not that good. EX Zankus are a nightmare.
One little addendum: Makoto showed a really good solution with crMK xx EX ST. I thought about it and if we don’t have down charge we can crMK xx EX RCF, while it won’t actually combo, its a decent way around that problem. The meter is well spent if you consider that now, not only you scored 100 of dmg and managed to get a good corner carry while being +0 at the distance you love. But you are NOT having to deal with Gouki’s pressure at your face. I don’t really think that the gap between crMK and EX RCF will be exploited in a real match. I need to test it more. But I don’t see why a Gouki would be spamming a jab or mashing DP after blocking a crMK in that situation.

2 - Its the BESTEST thing against Zanku Hadoukens EVER!

3 - It, somehow, manages to actually anti air his jiHK from the right range. The hitbox of U1 its not actually terrible. Just bad will do it. But the thing is that Gouki’s jump ins are also ass.

4 - It usually scores a counter hit against HK Air Tatsu if you react fast enough. But anyway… I can buffer df, db when I see the jump and react to the Zanku alone. Pretty neat.

5 - It also catches teleport, you need to react faster and it has to be done to your wall, otherwise you will pass above him. The U1 and EX FBA’s trajectory are not the same.

6 - It beats Demon Flip Grab setups with that neat damage. If you are able to recognize the delay that telegraph the setup you are rich.

7 - Its the BESTEST thing against Zanku Hadoukens EVER! This also applies to full screen HP Zankuu. Which means that you can really makes Gouki’s job at zoning way harder if you have it locked and ready to go.

Sure, I do lack the answer to a closer (EX) Gohadouken and an easier Ultra teleport punish. As far as I can see, Gouki is another character that I am thinking that Ultra Double will be useful. Sagat and Hawk are the ones that also deserve some thought after we know the actual penality in damage for using both ultras.

[Korbidon]

If U1 has the invulnerability that has been mentioned, it may become a much, much better ultra.

[Haztlan]

As far as we know, it doesnt.

[Moonchilde]

the problem with ultra 1 is doing it really fast. when i need to react to things i need it to come out as fast as possible. sure, if i concentrate on the corners i can get it, but that shouldn’t even been the case. going from db,df,db,f is really easy, but if you change it to the backwards chicken wing motion, it’s just easier to miss that db.

Well, that is exactly what I was talking about. Doing it too fast and not concentrating on your execution will make you prone to errors. Either you miss a motion or you press a button too fast. Either way, it boils down to it being your fault. Why should the input be more lenient? It pisses me off that a bunch of the inputs are far too lenient and have large input windows to do shit with. Example, Fei Long’s moves are ridiculous. B, F, B to do a B, D, DB? How does that even work? No. People should learn to do the move right.

If you use the corners, it really isn’t that hard. Just focus on it until it becomes second nature. There is plenty of time to input the move, no need to rush. It will come out if you start it a little earlier than usual.

I also don’t understand backwards CW? I tested it and that input does not work no matter how I time it. I just do it the proper way and it comes out as it should. DB, DF, DB, UB. Always have to start with DB.

I also have the “Second DB” problem. It sucks so much!
I can obviously do it for days at training mode, but when it comes to real matches when I react with it super fast EX FBA actually comes out. I get mad salty when that happens.
“Luckily” its only when I try to do U1 to my wall. U1 forward its easier somehow. Go figure…

Yeah, UF is a lot easier than UB. It’s probably because we all have so much time spent on perfecting the execution for cMP xx EX FBA that it feels natural to go UF.

I have the same problem when I do it fast, I only get EX FBA, and that is obviously not what I want. If I don’t focus, I will fuck it up. Every time. Obviously, this is my fault for a number of reasons, and it something I should focus on if I want to get better.

---

For any of you wanting faster execution, especially for moves like U1 to your wall, you’ll need to dump a JLF. It’s too slow and has too much travel distance. I really recommend looking into a Seimitsu LS-56 or a LS-40. LS-40 is my stick of choice, but everyone has different needs. I’ve always felt that as a charge character player, we need faster engages and less throw, and both of those sticks deliver. Plus, you can mod them further to have faster inputs beyond that. Just my input on that after having tried to play on a JLF and then both the LS-56 and LS-40.

[Niah]

hmm, never thought about using it on akuma and seth, that’s actually good to know.

yeah, uf is way easier than ub, i can actually get the 2nd db all the time. it’s one ways for me of doing the ultra, i go uf, then i hold back.

motion is do the u1 is db, then do backwards CW. sure, doing it slow will work, but in the heat of battle when you want to ultra someone on reaction, i can’t just do it slow! the point of my complaint isn’t that i can’t do the ultra. it’s just that there’s no leniency to the move.

nobody uses fei long’s b,f,b k. it’s slower than db,d,db k. it’s a nuisance when you crouch tech when your opponent crosses you up.

[Haztlan]

For any of you wanting faster execution, especially for moves like U1 to your wall, you’ll need to dump a JLF. It’s too slow and has too much travel distance. I really recommend looking into a Seimitsu LS-56 or a LS-40. LS-40 is my stick of choice, but everyone has different needs. I’ve always felt that as a charge character player, we need faster engages and less throw, and both of those sticks deliver. Plus, you can mod them further to have faster inputs beyond that. Just my input on that after having tried to play on a JLF and then both the LS-56 and LS-40.

Hm, thats interesting.
I’ve never tried another stick that wasn’t JLF. Thank you, I’ll look it up.