Every marvel player should read this.
Sent from my GAMEBOY using POKEMON
This man speaks the truth.
Likewise from the 3/5 petition thread:
From my own hand
I’ve noticed at many levels across the community there is a lack of try. Maybe its because of bullshit comeback mechanics making their way in(as much as I love the mvc3s… the bullshit of X-factor does not escape me.), maybe the revival of fighting games has softened us towards bullshit, who knows. What I do know is that Kusoru and other kusoge players make a solid point, time invested is progress gained.
Emil
143
This phenomenon of “the better player doesn’t always win” is more existent in marvel 3 than any other game I can think of. That’s obviously what’s meant by the randomness - chaos, lack of control. Even Wong and Combofiend said this is a big issue about the game.
To me, Kusoru’s team is designed to control the pace of the match as much as possible for him, and to avoid the majority of this randomness. He’s not completely immune to it but the fact is he can for the most, do his thing and not worry too much about people rushing in, or doing reaction supers (since Joe’s supers counter them).
I will agree with one thing Ive seen on here, I don’t think teams composed entirely of ground based characters are gonna fly much longer.
Name me a single UMvC3 game in Final Round where the better player lost undeservingly, rather than because his opponent is better.
otter
146
I disagree. Everyone has the same version of the game, with a move list, and training mode. Of course things are sometimes going to take you by suprise, but there is no reason to be like “Joe has a divekick that goes from the uppermost corner of the stage diagnally down to the complete other side and then he can easily link off of it, how come nobody told me that was a good move!?”
Sort of like how everyone needed to be told that Adon was good in SF4. The dude has the best RH in the game, DP FADC, two diverse ultras, safe pressure, full screen punishes. You don’t need to be pro to be able to add 2+2.
Some cases are obvious, but a year in isnt long for fighting games, especially Marvel where there’s so many options and crazy possibilities for tech. Hell take MvC2 a year in compared to the late tier lists. Or even 2-3 years in.
Example - It took nearly 6 months for people to even realize and accept that Wolverine was top tier in MvC3 and stop arguing that he belonged lower tier. And it hasn’t even been that long since Ultimate has been out.
Emil
148
Justin Wong? Mihe? Many others I can’t think of off the top of my head…anyway it’s going to happen in any fighting game in a tournament (I don’t know why you would even argue it especially for a game like marvel).
lawlHT
149
i wouldn’t entirely agree with Mihe, at the very least. once you stopped Zero, the rest of his team kinda fell apart.
First time posting in a long time.
I said this many months ago, and I’ll say it again. People don’t know how to play this game at all, still-- both top players and beginners/intermediate players. Don’t worry about tiers, pick 3 characters you enjoy, and learn to dissect every aspect of each character. Learn how to fight against every single character out there if you can. Don’t copy off of other players… or copy and try to dissect what is bad and what is good and add it to your repertoire.
I am so happy Japan took Marvel again at Final Round-- this brought many people back to reality on what Marvel is all about. See some of you at EVO.
Why the heck didn’t Justin Wong deserve to lose against 2 players playing lame keepaway teams when his team is so blatantly weak against such tactics? And why the heck didn’t Mihe deserve to lose against both Kusoru and PR Rog who clearly outplayed and outderped him? The whole idea that your favorite player should win everytime is ridiculous and very disrespectful towards the opponents who worked hard to beat them.
Perhaps the problem wasn’t his reply itself, but that he was replying to a fallacious sentiment:
Your statement implies that the better player always deserves to win; sometimes the better player is not always playing to their best, sometimes the better player is unfamiliar with a matchup (and everyone knows that in marvel the most powerful character is the one you don’t know how to fight), sometimes the better player’s team is just solidly countered by the worse, yet still competent, player’s team.
It’s obvious the best player does not win every game; the best player does win more often and more consistently. That being said, I’m realllly not so sure Kusoru’s a worse player than JWong, as DJ and others have pointed out he comes from a long background of mastering incredibly broken games; surely the fundamentals he’s built over the years transfer to Marvel.
can’t believe people are still dick riding Japan
game is 4 months old, there are so many fucking possibilities in a game like this that it takes more than 4 months to figure out what is good\bad so before you figure all that stuff out, you have to go through a process where ugly shit win sometimes. This being one of those times.
I’ve talked to so many older mvc2 heads about this and they 100% agree. Its nothing about US vs Japan or if kusoru is better than Justin, niggas are crazy, its about how new the game is and how everyone had to start over on a brand new game. Instead of the US having an edge on the competition because we played it harder than anyone else, just like Japan did with 3s and most of their other games, the playing field was neutralized by a newer game.
why are people so stupid on shoryuken.com?
I can’t seem to find the thread but many years ago, someone did a mathmatical calculation of how many team possibilites there were in mvc2 and iirc, it was in the millions. Even though that game lasted for 10 years, we still couldn’t figure out all the good possibilities and several good low tier characters got shunned not due to character potential but they were hidden amongst the large amounts of other teams. umvc3 has millions of team possibilites too and if we couldn’t figure it out in 10 years for mvc2 there is 0 fucking way we’ll know about it in 4 months for umvc3. Literally millions of team combinations and I’m sure someone here can do the math.
This thread should of been called new game syndrome and why new shit works in a new game. hmmmmmmmmm
most of the people that posted in this thread anyway weren’t even around for mvc2 to see the game develop from iceman is top tier and wrecking my shit to, why the fuck are you picking iceman against storm? mvc2 had new game syndrome @ one point too. To me this is history repeating itself because I’ve been a part of it before. Its the exact same thing.
So, the math for Marvel 2 goes like this: 168x167x166
Which is a whopping 4,657,296 different possibilities.
umvc3 has slightly less so its probably 3 million ish I assume so yea there you have it. Go figure out 3 million team combinations in 4 months when a community couldn’t do 4.6 million in 10 years.
marvel is different from SF, you don’t have to worry about 4.6 million teams only 20 characters typically in SF games to worry about. Its almost impossible to prep for marvel when the game is new because of the sheer amounts of possible team combinations someone can pick and they don’t even have to be good!!! if its new to you, chances are you know jack shit about what the character does or what his assists will do. You can hope to play “generically” and eek out a win on skill but you can still be blown the fuck up big time if you don’t have a clue as to WTF is going on as it was the case @ FR this year.
Well yes this is a brand new game and no one really knows yet the best ways to exploit it, so what has the most sway in actual match results? Fundamentals. How is saying, “player X who comes from Japan who is proven to have amazing fundamentals is on the same level as player Y who comes from America who is proven to have amazing fundamentals,” dickriding?
And yes, there are millions of team possibilities in this game. But the best teams are not discovered through random walk. I guess the whole “but millions of teams!” argument bugs me because it reeks of anti-intellectualism. In a game as complex as Marvel, as you note, it’s obviously impossible to try literally every combination and order of characters and assists, but we can come really fucking close to knowing what the best are by considering the merits of every character individually and then using things like intelligence and creativity to take us the rest of the way. Like what happened with Marvel 2. If your complaint is that people aren’t considering the poorly regarded characters, I don’t see that happening in this thread? Most people in here with halfway coherent posts are saying “if you want to progress the game, don’t copy others, just explore the characters you like?”
But then again you think Strider needs Orbs and XF3 to make a comeback (hint: he doesn’t need Orbs at all, and his neutral/mixup game is just as good with or without XF), so I’m not sure you’ve really thought things out too much yourself.
Gosh I’m confrontational today.
mag\doom
how the fuck are you supposed to approach fundamental layers when you have 0 fucking clue as to how the character you’re going up against is playing? furthermore, how the fuck are you supposed to approach fundamental assist layers when you’ve never seen the assist in action nor know what its capable of? seriously, how many people knew about RR log trap taking out projectiles going into that tournament? There are pro’s who STILL don’t know what that assist does.
you can only be fundamental about layers you know will happen. You can’t be psychic and determine fundamental layers about a sequence\character you’ve never seen before. Completely preposterous.
I shouldn’t have to explain that to a 2k3 member though.
dark strider no orbs can get blown up by several top tiers. Not my fault you’re playing against scrubs. Vergil for instance just rapes the holy shit out of it if he has bar. 0 opportunities
Tournament matches are 2/3, grand finals are at least one set of 3/5. Players tend to watch your tournament matches before facing you to get an idea of what they’ll be up against. Justin Wong played (and still lost) a first to 10 set against Kusoru. No one had “0 fucking clue,” especially after the first couple games, of what they were up against.
Most people at least understood that log trap is a projectile, and everyone knows projectile interactions are governed by durability. You may not know the exact durability, but after, for example, log trap takes out your level 3 buster for the first time, you know it has very good durability (for example note how Mihe almost exclusively used Buster from the air, at angles that went over the log trap, while fighting Kusoru).
Adaptability is a very important part of being a good fighting game player. Its one aspect of “fundamentals.”
But I think you have a very different idea of what “fundamentals” means, so I’ll explain. Fighting game fundamentals are the components of the general skillset you take with you game to game that allow you to quickly pick up a game and attain mastery over other players. Fundamentals are things like spacing, execution, adaptation, reactions, player reading ability, skills that both allow one to excel despite not necessarily picking the best characters/teams and to make the best use of the tools the have available to them. Fundamentals come from ingrained habits and experience. Do you really think top players are such because they always have more knowledge about the game than others?
Emil
158
Actually I take back the Mihe comment…he’s not as good as Kusoru and he’s probably on the same level as PR Rog. But my point is obviously that the best player doesn’t always win, and far moreso in this game than other games.
I don’t remember why this argument even came up, too lazy to re-read the previous comments. Forget it.
I thought the argument before Final Round was that Japan was free because US had X amount of years of experience in mvc2? What happened to that again?
You have to admit though, its a hell of a defining feature. These players are known because they found a distinctive cheapness, run with it, and have had success with it. Hell, Viscant has made his name and based his game around simple sheer knowledge. I’d go further to argue that despite Kurosu’s track record of broken games and their fundamentals, the reason he took FR15 was because he was dropping knowledge that America either did not have, or did not consider.
While we’re at it, isn’t knowledge a building block of fundamentals? Sure, you can be great at poking your opponent, but crouch forward to fireball is going to take you a lot further in SF than it is in Marvel. System knowledge is just as crucial to fundamentals as anything else you mentioned.
Is it really a defining feature though? Sure you have the occasional Viscant and Ryan Hunter, but top players with that kind of in depth knowledge seem to be the exception. It seems at least early on, for every Ryan Hunter knowledge bomb, you get 3x the silly shit in the form of “Ghost Rider is top three” or “Magneto is useless” and “Wesker’s OP.” (FChamp, Fanatiq, and pretty much every notable player respectively)
Also the only matches I remember that were clear examples of “player doesn’t know how to fight Kusoru’s team” were with PR Rog, but that was super weird not only because of log trap but he kept trying to hit Joe out of raw dodge xx Mach Speed and shit even after getting rocked by it like 3 times right before. Joe’s not even that rare a character.
But yeah system knowledge is definitely crucial and being able to grok a game is another part of fundamentals. I hope I wasn’t arguing against that, but rather arguing that specific character knowledge and tech is faaar less relevant between players of different skill levels than everything else I mentioned.
