ULTIMATE Balance/Tier talk thread

[AceKillah]

What makes it even though? The up arrows?

Up-Arrows stop/stall a lot of typical Zero bs. Taskmaster s.B is arguably the best normal in the game and his j.C trades with pizza cutter.Dash cancel Shield Skills is retarded and blows through lighting and buster and obvious buster shots can be reflected with his projectile counter.

[Mustachio]

What makes it even though? The up arrows?

I’m with Nitro on this one. How?

[Edit] Answered.

[Nitro_Noodlez]

Up-Arrows stop/stall a lot of typical Zero bs. Taskmaster s.B is arguably the best normal in the game and his j.C trades with pizza cutter.Dash cancel Shield Skills is retarded and blows through lighting and buster and obvious buster shots can be reflected with his projectile counter.

Now that I look at the frame data for Taskmaster’s st.B, it’s surprisingly pretty fast, even faster than Strider’s broken st.H.

[Sevans]

I don’t really think that Magneto beats Zero at all. Not only does Zero have more in his arsenal, he can also (pretty safely) control space against Mags by properly utilizing buster cancel tactics. If Magnus has 3 bars then it’s a bit different and I actually prefer to try and stay on the ground then, because I know they’ll be fishing for Gravity Squeeze and should they blow their load and use it I just reaction Genmu Zero, because it snuffs almost everything.

Taskmaster hassles Zero because he’s about the only character who has normals and projectiles that compete with what Zero has.
-Fully charged arrow shots cancel out a level 3 buster, and they take a lot less time to charge.
-The up arrows are definitely a pain on Zero’s approach.
-He’s got a counter super which can stop Zero from pressing too much shit in the air.
-His throws lead to easy, big damage.
-His crouching normals are sick for frame traps.
-Random “SHIELD SKILLZ” can kinda blow up predictably lame Zero play. Especially now that he can make that shit safe.

Other than Task, I think Dorm, Hawkeye, Astral Vision Morrigan ( I give no fucks about regular Morrigan,) and a good Trish can give Zero problems.

[CaliberChamp]

So, after getting bopped by pretty good Zeros all night(damn you Nini), I gotta ask what are Zero’s actual weaknesses if any? Does any character or team actually give him trouble?

Seems like a lot of people don’t know how to fight against a Zero in this thread. The only ones that do are the Zero players themselves with a few exceptions of course. We already discussed Zero’s weaknesses a few pages back.

[k4polo]

Zero, Zero, Zero, Zero.

S tier for sure but totally stoppable which is good for this game I suppose.

The lack of Haggar/Tron assist could makes things more hectic now.

DP got a hella of alot more counters in this game.
She is good but yea. She can be more counterpicked against now.

[CaliberChamp]

Zero, Zero, Zero, Zero.

S tier for sure but totally stoppable which is good for this game I suppose.

The lack of Haggar/Tron assist could makes things more hectic now.

DP got a hella of alot more counters in this game.
She is good but yea. She can be more counterpicked against now.

Actually, Tron and Haggar assist should make things less hectic now. Especially Tron. Fighting against a tron/haggar assist in vanilla was a chore to find an opening to attack, it forced you to keep your distance.

[Swedish_Chef]

Now that I actually really think about Taskmaster might be the only character to go 5-5 with Zero before assist get involed. Who else could be close? Dorm?

This is a highly arguable statement but I believe that a good Hawkeye player is capable of giving Zero players fits from a distance, where as a good Zero player is capable of dominating Hawkeye players at a close range.
It’s a matchup where the character who has the advantage is primarily determined by the distance between the combatants, due to this I’d argue that it’s around a 5-5 matchup or slightly in Zero’s favour.

Also this may not refer to the character normally (as amazing as he is), I believe that Dante with Devil Trigger on is at least an even matchup vs Zero, he’ll he’s probably even or more with every member of the cast while he’s in Devil Trigger as it’s IMO one of the best utility supers in the game.

[Mustachio]

Seems like a lot of people don’t know how to fight against a Zero in this thread. The only ones that do are the Zero players themselves with a few exceptions of course. We already discussed Zero’s weaknesses a few pages back.

They’re fighting Zero online which is a losing battle for near any character. Everything Ace listed in regards to Taskmaster competing with Zero requires so much pre-emptive input it makes the matchup more of a 2-8 : Task-Zero.

[Nini_Heart]

Assuming she doesn’t have a good AAA or lockdown is like assuming Wesker isn’t using a beam or Brokuma assist (Unless of course he’s an anchor).

Jam Session eats Doom missiles, Seismo pins Zero down and forces him away, Ex Seismo can catch any non-super jump zoning, Thunder Knuckle can punish any form of grounded lame, etc etc. I’m not trying to presume Viper is the end all to everything, I just think she handles Zero very well with particular assists. Zero can completely devastate half the cast just by himself. Against Viper, he has to actually think about playing his cards.

Let me rephrase my original statement: I think Chrisis’ Viper could handle Viscant’s Zero without breaking a sweat.

Buster>>>>Seismo

The one thing Zero must worry about against viper is EX Thunder Knuckle to blow through grounded buster+ assist and EX Seismo to blow through pressure in general, which is why the best way to play this matchup as Zero is just staying in the air shooting stuff down on her. The fact that he can deal pretty well with the two AA assists as well (J.H, airdash, preemptive lightning for strider, Buster sometimes beats jam session, sometimes gets eaten up by it) makes it not such a great matchup for viper.

Up-Arrows stop/stall a lot of typical Zero bs. Taskmaster s.B is arguably the best normal in the game and his j.C trades with pizza cutter.Dash cancel Shield Skills is retarded and blows through lighting and buster and obvious buster shots can be reflected with his projectile counter.

This, but I still don’t think it’s 5/5 without assists since zero can turn up sougenmu and instantly turn every match in his favor.

[Dahbomb]

If you get time to build up meters you’re then looking at stuff like Point character super, DHC into Storm or Strange or any other 1 frame blow up DHC super that does a lot of damage.

But that blows up everyone in the game.

[Viscant]

People really need to stop thinking Viper is the end all be all to everything She needs an anti air assist to do something against Zero, which means her assiist isn’t blowing up hidden missiles, so she has two things to deal with in this team.

As for Viscant, I like the team he’s using(lets be straight up, that’s team AvariceX) and he seems to be understanding that Zero really doesn’t need to go in and can just lame it out till the other player gets impatient and gives him an opening. Now, he only needs to understand how to do real combos and not be afraid to go for the kill using a meter or 2 even if he’s using a phoenix team, or learn some actual resets.

I’m working on 2 Zero teams right now, Zero/Doom missiles/Phoenix (team highlight: 750k damage for 0 meter builds 2, I hit that combo about 1 in 3 though, my execution is amazing) and Zero/Wesker/Doom. On the Zero/Wesker/Doom missiles team I just tap them out of the air after the missiles, S, hienkyaku, buster, lightning ender, cancel to Sougenmu and go for either lightning crossup, standard l-r, or try to anchor them on the ground and hunt for unblockable. Very Wesker-esque, just no real throw option. Even characters with airdashes seem to have a hard time getting out of that; the only character that I’m scared to reset is Sentinel and since there’s no Phoenix on that team I can just end with level 3 instead of reset.

Still not exactly sure of myself using corner resets without Sougenmu yet so the Phoenix team is weaker than the Wesker team for me right now. I think in the long run the Phoenix team will be stronger, assuming I ever get good enough with Zero. The Zero experiment is still a work in progress. He’s fun, I just get lost during situations when nothing is going on. Unsure of when to zone, when to go in, etc. Still a lot to learn.

–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

[Sevans]

Just play Zero, Hawkeye, Doom like I do. It’s cheap. And easy. Zone, zone, zone, hit confirm from lightning or missiles, kill a character, zone, zone, zone. Should Zero die, just continue to zone.

[otter]

believe me i know. ive watched capcoms marketing strategy since '91 when i first played WW in the arcades. ist just boggles my mind that they are so stubborn with there tradition and they still think that mid '80’s marketing is going to get them places…

-dime

I’m going to play the devil’s advocate and say that it must take a lot of damn work to make a fighting game engine, and that worrying about the bells and whistles just isn’t their main priority. I mean, FPS engines haven’t changed all that much, and if anything, have gotten worse. MvC3 is a GREAT engine. I know it’s cool to hate on the game, but it’s fucking great. There are almost fifty characters and they’re all competetive AND diverse. That’s never really happened in a fighting game.What I’m saying is, it’s dignified of them to make a great game rather than using the WoW format and making a shitty game then saying “it works great online so who cares?”.

I agree that capcom needs to get their shit together, though. I would trade twenty of the characters for the ability to have playable netcode and better infrastructure.

SFxT may be the nail in the coffin though.

[Nini_Heart]

I’m working on 2 Zero teams right now, Zero/Doom missiles/Phoenix (team highlight: 750k damage for 0 meter builds 2, I hit that combo about 1 in 3 though, my execution is amazing) and Zero/Wesker/Doom. On the Zero/Wesker/Doom missiles team I just tap them out of the air after the missiles, S, hienkyaku, buster, lightning ender, cancel to Sougenmu and go for either lightning crossup, standard l-r, or try to anchor them on the ground and hunt for unblockable. Very Wesker-esque, just no real throw option. Even characters with airdashes seem to have a hard time getting out of that; the only character that I’m scared to reset is Sentinel and since there’s no Phoenix on that team I can just end with level 3 instead of reset.

Still not exactly sure of myself using corner resets without Sougenmu yet so the Phoenix team is weaker than the Wesker team for me right now. I think in the long run the Phoenix team will be stronger, assuming I ever get good enough with Zero. The Zero experiment is still a work in progress. He’s fun, I just get lost during situations when nothing is going on. Unsure of when to zone, when to go in, etc. Still a lot to learn.

–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

You’re using the wrong assist for Phoenix imo.
After a hard knockdown, backdash or jump back>call salty ball>TK or low height M raikousen is a perfectly valid 50/50 reset which leads to 2-3 more mixups if blocked.
Saltyball also lets you do earlycombo extensions(blabla 5H>6H>Call phoenix>5M>5H>6H) and nets easier corner carry

Good shit on picking up Zero though

[Smexy_Millz]

Learning zeros neutral game takes a while… everyone knows that situation when your just sitting there think erm what should I be doing now… best thing to do is to watch others play the character

[WorstPlayer]

I’m going to play the devil’s advocate and say that it must take a lot of damn work to make a fighting game engine, and that worrying about the bells and whistles just isn’t their main priority. I mean, FPS engines haven’t changed all that much, and if anything, have gotten worse. MvC3 is a GREAT engine. I know it’s cool to hate on the game, but it’s fucking great. There are almost fifty characters and they’re all competetive AND diverse. That’s never really happened in a fighting game.What I’m saying is, it’s dignified of them to make a great game rather than using the WoW format and making a shitty game then saying “it works great online so who cares?”.

I agree that capcom needs to get their shit together, though. I would trade twenty of the characters for the ability to have playable netcode and better infrastructure.

SFxT may be the nail in the coffin though.

Way to early to say they’re all competitive; not like it matters when you see the same 10 characters or so every match.

[Mustachio]

Way to early to say they’re all competitive; not like it matters when you see the same 10 characters or so every match.

So effin true. Hsien-Ko can work, but why do that when Dante does it a hundred times easier? I think we need more diehard fans… Felicia is a good character, so why the **** don’t I see her more often?

[AceKillah]

So effin true. Hsien-Ko can work, but why do that when Dante does it a hundred times easier? I think we need more diehard fans… Felicia is a good character, so why the **** don’t I see her more often?

Well to be blatantly obvious, I want to win. I’m going to use a team I feel I can win with now if I can incorporate characters I like onto the team then of course I’m going to do that. I mean there is plenty of die-hard fans but when it comes down too it and money/pride/ranking whatever is on the line I’m pulling out all the stops. That being said if Gene did make it into the game I would main him forever.

[Mustachio]

That being said if Gene did make it into the game I would main him forever.

I want Leon Kennedy. Chris Redfield would be so last year.