9941

Yeah I didn’t really care much for the anti fireball stuff since in 3S he had things that naturally dealt with fireballs well like his j.HK any way. Randoms really like to hype up the ability to move through fireballs but if you played games like ST or 3S you learn how to deal with fireballs with your basic normals and movement any way. Standard footsies can get you around most fireball stuff well enough and it was obvious Guile’s crazy fast recovery on his booms was going to give him problems no matter what. The comboable overhead was going to be nice if they weren’t going to give him the same stubby normals he had from 3S.

9942

His overhead would be better if backdashes weren’t so fucking hard to deal with without an OS. In 4 it’s really only good in corner situations or if you catch them off guard. The mixup in 4 is based around cross ups.

9943
9944

don’t know if I’ll be able to post again before christmas. If I can’t y’all have a really good holiday :smiley:

9945

There was a famous research experiment where a scientist asked a bunch of the best tennis players in the world to describe how they hit a topspin forehand. All the pros said the same thing, “you twist your wrist as you make contact with the tennis ball.”

Then they filmed them all in high speed to see how they hit topspin forehands. As it turns out, they weren’t twisting their wrists until long after they had already hit the ball and it was on its way back across the court.

Their wrists stayed steady. It was all about the upward motion of the racket generating the top spin (think pong).

The moral of the story is : don’t just blindly accept what a pro says unless it also makes sense and you can verify it. The ability to be really good at something doesn’t always overlap with the ability to understand it, articulate it and/or teach it to others.

I do wish more experienced/well-known players would contribute in the thread, but it is what it is.

9946

Just since you prompted me to, my current top 5, note, this is obviously my opinion and shouldn’t be taken as pure fact, I may have different information from you involving things either you don’t know or you have things I know. If I state anything you feel is inaccurate feel free to tell me why and explain your reasoning so I could either correct the list or explain other things which may over ride the facts that you present. Anyways, here it is!:

1.) Viper: When properly assisted she’s the character with the strongest positives in the game to the point that it’s fairly nonsensical, one of the only real defensive options and incredibly versatile in ability. Her worst match ups are Zero and Firebrand both of which are issues, her weaknesses include limited air to air control and poor normals. The primary reason why she’s too strong is that she controls the ground plane better than any other character in the game and everyone has to return to the ground at some point; the other primary over powered aspect is the risk reward ratio on seismic hammer and EX seismic hammer.

2.) Zero: Universally strong character, tools are slightly less dominant of the ground based fighters than Viper, but fares better against those that require the air extensively in their game plans. His worst match ups are Hawkeye, Firebrand, and potentially Doctor Strange, his weaknesses involve requiring level 3 for invincibility, and issues with people who get to blow up or avoid buster for free. The primary reasons that he’s too strong are the fact that he can cover multiple air angles exceptionally well and convert everything into high damage, although when on the defense he doesn’t have Viper levels of stupid, his normals are so powerful that he can function well in almost every situation.

3.) Firebrand: The most potent solo and assisted mix ups in the entire game, his/her tools at neutral work against the threats exceptionally well. His/Her worst match ups are Hawkeye, Magneto, and potentially Doctor Strange, his/her weaknesses are primarily based around the fact that he/she can’t become invincible and his most stupid of bullshit seems to require much higher execution than Viper or Zero, additionally damage requires teams built specifically for it. The primary reasons that he/she is too strong is that his/her neutral game is vastly superior to the majority of the cast. Among the best normals, zoning tools, etc. His/her triple command dash is some of the best movement in the game and can control the pace against everyone including the top 2.

4.) Dante: He was nerfed significantly, that said he works well on any team, has 2 of the top assists, one of the best DHCs and is over all a powerful ally for every situation. His worst match ups are the top 3, his weaknesses are severe issues with normals especially when pressured by characters with incredibly stupid tools, and a requirement of very specific assists to get full damage with him. The primary reasons that he’s too strong are that his normals albeit terrible for dealing with rush down are amazing for controlling space, he has good confirms from tons of situations, one of the best DHC starters and one of the best DHC enders, some of the best assists, and some of the easiest space control tools with stinger, air play, crystal, etc. Additionally bold blocking is stupid amazing and makes him one of the few characters with stable ways out of a lot of things that are otherwise BS, especially command grab/low mix ups.

5.) Hawkeye: I’m tempted not to put this character on the list but he has to be here, he has a very good space control game both while in there and farther back, but most importantly his tools effect characters that don’t have ways of going invincible/blocking immediately. I feel he has bad match ups against Viper, Dante, and potentially Spencer, his weaknesses aren’t that pronounced, it’s more that his strengths are less ridiculous than the top 4, he has to commit in a lot of situations the other 4 have options that they can go through 4 or 5 different possibilities to follow up depending on what the opponent does. Strengths include being able to pierce the vast majority of normal projectiles, having the best DHC to set up state change characters like Zero, Vergil, etc. and being able to punish movement options from people who can’t instantly block or become invincible. He is one of the characters the most benefited by the lack of blocking during air dash.

9947

I agree with your statements about hawkeye.

9948

no offense but fuck a top players opinion on teirs with a game still in the developing stages. all that shit right now is opinion.

9949

Holy shit, J Wong was wrong. His years and years of proven success must of been FRAUD! He was wrong once!

9950

thats not the problem

what he trying to show is that a top player word isn’t law. which is what some ppl think is the general rule.

9951

I guess everyone just loves Wesker and thinks he’s a super cool dude then?

That argument just doesn’t seem to hold a lot of weight in a game where people seemed completely mindfucked over the idea that Justin Wong was playing characters he enjoyed playing rather than going 100% top tier.

9952

As a huge RE fan, I completely love Wesker. I also love his current voice actor, D.C. Douglas. I also think that his gameplay is completely perfect to how he is in the video game and mercenaries mode.

Yeah, the notion that in order for your opinion to be valid about a game, you need to have:

1)the reflexes
2)execution
3)in game intuition (i.e. guessing right)
4)tournament clutchness

that top players have is beyond bullshit. All you need to have is a great understanding of

1)game engine, mechanics, characters
2)metagame (i.e. how to win and mixups/strategies)
3) character matchups.

Since the closest analogy is sports, plenty of people get paid to talk about/report/analyze sports that have never even PLAYED in their life, let alone been a top pro player.

Justin is placing well in KOF, wanna ask his opinions about that game?

Hell, no. He’s winning with pure basics and Day 1 shit, and godlike reactions and patience. He knows next to nothing about the game, obviously.

9953

The people in this thread were mindfucked that IF won before Firebrand or Zero then brought their salt to this thread for no reason not the people who played Justin weren’t and were playing the match to the best of their knowledge which was runaway from fist and chip him out but they got out played.

Noel Brown still plays Wolverine despite his nerfs because he likes him, should he drop him for Zero when he can win with a character he likes? No and this notion that some players don’t actually like the characters they play is retarded and you can’t prove it while I can say that F.Champ still plays Phoenix.

My argument is that there is no reason to play Zero or Viper if you don’t like to play with them which a lot of players don’t. You can easily win with characters you like so calling people lazy for not picking a character that happens to be a great point is fucking dumb. How that is so hard to understand for the few (only a few) closeminded people in this thread is beyond me.

Edit: And btw a BUNCH of people bitched at capcom to put Wesker in this game before ever seeing how he would actually play so it’s not crazy to think he has a few real fans.

9954

Once? Try adding a few digits.

9955

Reason4U, you’re shitting up this thread about character worth with “play who you like” nonsense

I blame Wong for posters Reason4U suddenly getting confidence. You damn anomaly, you’re going to get to your MvC2 status in this game aren’t you? You’re gonna run some bizzare ass characters team shit and body players, making the novices think those characters when it’s really your fundamentals, understanding of the game and team construction, and ability to execute your plan that are off the fucking charts.

It’s like Superman saying you can get like him if you eat your vegetables.

9956

He’s been wrong plenty times but all of us have been wrong about stuff really.

In the end what matters most is how good you are with what character you play. Which is why J.Wong/Rick O. have stuck with Rufus (outside of some character switches for certain matchups here and there) for most of SFIV in general.

I remember trying not to laugh at DjHuoshen’s Felicia/SuperSkrull/Taskmaster team and how the local guys would talk with him in Vanilla about how he would eventually need to change up. Months later he’s proven the team is completely viable all around and the team more or less got buffed for Ultimate. The balance between the characters in this game is solid enough where good team construction will take you far as long as the characters aren’t all ass tier or all provide sub par assists.

9957

Part of it is that everyone is so bad right now that it’s more about your personal input with the characters you’re playing rather than the strength of the characters themselves.

I’d wager that 50 hours in the lab with Captain America is going to get you more results than 1 hour with Wesker. If you love Captain America you’ll find the time. If you don’t, you won’t.

I spent a lot of time on Trish in Vanilla and I kept thinking I’d run out of things to figure out with her, because she’s pretty straight forward and simple. And the more I played, the deeper the rabbit hole went. I kept finding new shit, new mix-ups, new uses of her moves, new combos, new team synergies, etc. I figured out all the little shit about her combos to make them more consistent and always get the corner carry or setups that I wanted.

I’m betting that’s most characters honestly and people just aren’t putting in enough time yet.

9958

You mean Jill/Ruby Heart/Ken isn’t a good MvC2 team?

9959

This team isn’t bad either.

[media=youtube]6kMcrSEWelI[/media]

Tied for 7th place that year.

9960

I dunno what your getting at me for honestly. I never said characters like Zero or Viper aren’t among the best I’m just saying people are talking like “lol people are so dumb for using highly effective characters when they could be building their teams around one of three characters they might not even like to get wins” when really these same people are doing well with the characters they are already choosing.

Zero,Viper,Firebrand,etc are not some autowin button that you can learn then just body everyone with, and as long as people can beat those characters with the one they are already using nobody is gonna deconstruct their team for them. They are gonna play who they feel comfortable with.