ULTIMATE Balance/Tier talk thread

[NonSexualRice]

I really think ppl are sleeping on chun li in this game she still has god like assists. And they fixed all her holes from vanilla. She has godlike rushdown on par with any char up close. She also has one of the best anti air and wakeup moves with ex spinning bird kick. She still has tac unblockable combos which allow her to steal resources or gain resources if needed. Only thing she was missing in vanilla was damage because she didnt have a otg super and she had no way to land her supers in long combos. Another thing she has going for her if you play any type of hard hitting team you can easily do tag in combos off her fireball.

Err… Lightning legs rapes Hit stun decay in UMVC3, and is arguably her only good assist. Kikoken is useless.
Her EX Spinning bird kick is difficult to use and telegraphed as all hell.
Her rushdown is complete balls as well.

[Van_Vogel]

The funny thing about Wesker is that we went through these same discussions in vanilla, and if you paid any attention, Wesker was already having a ton of bad matchups come to light towards the end of vanilla. Why wouldn’t the same thing happen here, especially since I honestly do think he’s worse than he was in vanilla. Glasses are great, sure, but I don’t think people are fully realizing what a big nerf his rhino charge was, just because not enough new players are hurting Wesker to the point that he needs to use it for defense. Once they get to that point, it’s really going to hurt Wesker I think. Hell, when I face a Wesker mirror match, I tag in Spencer and bionic arm the fuck out of him all day. As long as it’s not full screen, rhino charge will get stuffed every time pretty much now. That would have been suicide in vanilla. (Also, and this is probably just a nerf for me personally, but now characters randomly fall out of Spencer’s diagonal grapple assist if you try to use it to extend Wesker’s combos in the corner, due to some new hitbox irregularity. Probably 65% of the matches I’ve lost so far have been due to this, since I’ll lose both the combo damage, chance for a reset, and it usually leaves me wide open for an easy punish as soon as it happens as well)

Anyway, regarding Wesker’s decline towards the end of Vanilla (granted it wasn’t a collapse, but he was nowhere near as effective as he was initially once his flaws started to come out more), I’d point towards that Wakeup SRK interview Viscant did recently, he talks about some of this, and I’m not saying that just because Viscant says it I now believe it, but that myself and a lot of Wesker players had been feeling that way down the road in vanilla, and having the same thing come from a premier Wesker player was pretty nice confirmation that I wasn’t crazy.

Wesker’s glasses help (though honestly sometimes I don’t even like it, since if I’m not paying attention I’ll lose them and then drop combos not realizing I need to alter the hits due to the speed enhancement), but I think the same flaws that started to show in vanilla will start to show in this game, since they should actually be magnified due to the gun and rhino charge nerfs.

[Cosmic_Castaway]

God, the hitstun decay on Doom’s combos hit me hard. I can’t imagine how difficult it is for Dante mains to adapt.

Not that hard, really. Most of his old stuff works.

I’m not throwing my hands up in defeat. I don’t think Wesker is unbeatable.

He can out footsy, out zone, and rushdown just about anyone in the cast. That’s a fact.

Wesker isn’t going anywhere. That’s sad but true. So either you get down or you lay down.

I would like you to examine these three lines in your post. Particularly the last line juxtaposed to the first.

That being said, You’ve clearly missed the point I made, and as someone mentioned before, you really don’t know what you’re talking about. The anti-Wesker tech is here, and has been forever, but again, all you’re seeing is brainless stuff that looks good.

He cannot do all these things you claim to be fact, because there are plenty of characters better than him. You’re telling me he can effectively zone almost anyone with just that gun? Wrong. Rushdown? Nope, there’s good amount of characters better than him in that department too. And footsies? Half the cast says hi. You want to know some of my anti-Wesker tech? It’s one move: The Hammer. Wesker can come up to me and cr.LLLLLLLLLL all day if he wants to, but I’m going to slam him right out of it.

I hate to be like this, but when you are talking to someone that mains Viper, Dante, and Vergil, and you say to them that Wesker is better, when you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about, then you need to get off the forums and go get some experience. No one is saying Wesker is trash, they’re just saying that he isn’t all people crack him up to be.

At the moment, you are theory-fighting. Experience and knowledge trump theory-fighting every time.

[WorstPlayer]

Anti Wesker tech eh? I am expecting anti, anti Wesker tech to follow. Either way it will be interesting to see.

[NissanZaxima]

The sad thing is too that these Wesker discussions will pretty much never end because I always expect him to dominate the tournament results because of how braindead and easy he is to use. Combine that with that he has one of the best assists to extend combos for characters and is one of the best anchors then he will occupy the 3rd spot on a lot of teams for awhile. No thinking, no risks, big derp damage.

[Soviet_Afro]

Anti-wesker=Play Zero Firebrand
Anti-anti Wesker… Pick Strider Y assist

[hybreezy]

Anti-wesker=Play Zero Firebrand
Anti-anti Wesker… Pick Strider Y assist

what are the chances Firebrand and Zero are still alive by the time XF4 Wesker rears his beautiful David Bowie esque mug

[KingHippo42]

Plus I’m not afraid to jump against Wesker without full screen gun combo. And if you think his teleport is UNREACTABLE…you’re an old man.

[Soviet_Afro]

The sad thing is too that these Wesker discussions will pretty much never end because I always expect him to dominate the tournament results because of how braindead and easy he is to use. Combine that with that he has one of the best assists to extend combos for characters and is one of the best anchors then he will occupy the 3rd spot on a lot of teams for awhile. No thinking, no risks, big derp damage.

He’s kind of the Cable of this game, Character design and the game type just makes him effective. He will be the basis of what is good in this game for awhile.

[UnshapedOrkRandomNumber]

Wesker is a character I never had as much trouble with, probably because I played against way too many of them online and offline in vanilla compared to other, rarer characters like Zero.

Not that hard, really. Most of his old stuff works.

I don’t know. Maybe it’s just that I haven’t practiced with him in Training Mode for over a month.

Still, his assists are freaking awesome, and it’s not like they nerfed him in any way. Doom is the first character I played with, so I’m glad that he didn’t get hit like a bunch of other characters (Poor She-Hulk) did.

[Dahbomb]

The Cable comparison is extremely apt. Even though Cable was like top 4 he was still considered lesser of the gods. I can easily think of 3 characters better than Wesker in this game (it’s pretty much everyone’s S tier in this thread so far).

[Epic_Squid]

Wesker’s teleports should have as much start-up and recovery as Vergil… Either way it should be covered by an assist, only difference is that glassless x-factor lvl 3 Wesker has to put some thought into his teleports…

Lvl 4 Wesker is fast as fuck! Anyone with the guide know what his speedboost is in lvl 3 and lvl 3 with no glasses?

[Duck_Strong]

i’ve never played doom before until today so this is a new find for me…why the hell is hyper a physical hit

Pretty sure they’d have to activate the counter before Doom does his level 3. Unless they changed it since vanilla, you can’t reversal super the Doom blender so landing a counter against will only happen if the Doom player makes it happen.

[Duck_Strong]

God, the hitstun decay on Doom’s combos hit me hard. I can’t imagine how difficult it is for Dante mains to adapt.

I also always forget to use his new and improved foot dive (Even though it’s ridiculous… I heard somebody say that it gives you enough time to have a coffee break before launching, and that’s an understatement. I could play freaking Monopoly in that frame.), and I never use his neutral H. I really need to go into training mode with him again, especially since he works really well hard-tagging off Firebrand for super damaging combos.

What are you talking about? Practically every single one of Doom’s old combos still work.

[Onikage]

I could envision a scenario where the Doom player throws out Doom’s Time at greater than point blank range…of course it would involve the Doom player not being very good. =/

[Maverick8]

Speaking of Wong screwing around with characters, I hope actually takes Felecia into a tournament setting. She looks like she has the potential to be A tier to me.

On the big guys discussion:

My Ranking

1. Sentinel (if you count him as a BIG)
2. Nemesis
3. Thor
4. Hulk

I still think Hulk is the weakest of the bunch. If you want more reason, ask. When I have time I’ll answer you. Nemesis and Thor are really close to switching places.

[charlie88]

Pretty sure they’d have to activate the counter before Doom does his level 3. Unless they changed it since vanilla, you can’t reversal super the Doom blender so landing a counter against will only happen if the Doom player makes it happen.

Yea it was doom vs wesker he saw me about to do a crouching h and did rhino charge i then did the blender not knowing that its a PHYSICAL move and those got countered for it and inevitably loss the match. If i would have known that i would have done finger lasers but i didnt know the properties of Dooms Time

[Cosmic_Castaway]

I don’t know. Maybe it’s just that I haven’t practiced with him in Training Mode for over a month.

Still, his assists are freaking awesome, and it’s not like they nerfed him in any way. Doom is the first character I played with, so I’m glad that he didn’t get hit like a bunch of other characters (Poor She-Hulk) did.

The only change I’ve seen in Dante’s BnBs are those off of Hammer/j.S, and that is that SmexyMillz’ BnB (623M, jH, j236M, jH, 5H, S, jH, j236L, 623M~M xx Super) only works in the corner now. That, and 5L, 5M, 5H, 5S is pretty inconsistent (I don’t think it connects ever, actually), but that was never what led to his most damaging stuff, so it’s whatever.

And yes, his assists are quite amazing.

[NaokiB4U]

Here’s the problem I have with all this talk about Wesker being “dumb” and “here to stay.” This is a sign of an increasingly agonizing mentality in the fighting game community, where players think they have the game figured out at first or second glance, based on what is easiest. There is an extensive amount of examples in past games where what worked at the beginning of a game’s life proved only about half as effective (if that) months-to-years down the line. There is an emphasis on what holds the player’s hand the most, where effort being rewarded is regarded as simply not as good, or will decline in use once it’s “figured out.”

Instead of approaching characters and games like this, players should choosethis perspective, wherein the concept of play is devoted towards creativity and reward through effort. Seth Killian said, “The world is the best beta test there is”, and he’s exactly right. All of us have spent time in sessions, online, and in the lab, figuring so much out about this game. Heads turned when the Church of Viper started making their stand, and no one could see what they were talking about. Now what do we have? A huge consensus that Viper is amazing. Sentinel was originally thought to be crazy as well, and all the health nerf in 3.0 did was speed up the process of discovering his flaws.

Getting hung up on a character like Wesker, and so easily overlooking other characters with much better tools, is just a sign you’re clearly not knowledgeable, or experienced enough, to realize that there is so much tech out there to combat what we are currently facing. Furthermore, understand that UMvC3 is best described as an iceberg, and we are merely looking at the tip of it. Wesker will always be solid, but is he destined to stay top? No, because he’s not even top in the first place.

I actually agree with this 100% I always try to work harder with characters that may not be as good or take more work to be good. Its always cool to see good players learning underused characters. (those Morrigan matches at Big two were awesome).

But here’s the flaw with the logic. In tournament play, its not worth the effort. Viper is high tier for sure, but requires hours and hours of work and tons of experience. Why bother when you can do the same damage with Wesker with simple BNBs? Why bother when you can have various easy unblockable setups with Wesker on your side? Why bother when simply doing maximum Wesker once will up your damage and speed instantly? With today’s games, creativity won’t win you tournaments. Look at Viscant, awesome player who knew that picking the team he did gave him an edge without having to pour a ridiculous amount of time learning characters that may have been just as powerful but required more tricks and gimmicks to be as strong.His team was very straightforward and he won MVC3 EVO using his skill and knowledge of those straightforward characters.

As long as today’s games don’t “require” you to learn these creative tactics to win, tournament mentality will continue to stray away from creativity and move closer to simplicity. And this is incredibly regrettable.

[Ouroborus]

people are now downplaying wesker like they downplayed vanilla wolvie?

Not that hard, really. Most of his old stuff works.

I would like you to examine these three lines in your post. Particularly the last line juxtaposed to the first.

That being said, You’ve clearly missed the point I made, and as someone mentioned before, you really don’t know what you’re talking about. The anti-Wesker tech is here, and has been forever, but again, all you’re seeing is brainless stuff that looks good.

He cannot do all these things you claim to be fact, because there are plenty of characters better than him. You’re telling me he can effectively zone almost anyone with just that gun? Wrong. Rushdown? Nope, there’s good amount of characters better than him in that department too. And footsies? Half the cast says hi. You want to know some of my anti-Wesker tech? It’s one move: The Hammer. Wesker can come up to me and cr.LLLLLLLLLL all day if he wants to, but I’m going to slam him right out of it.
I hate to be like this, but when you are talking to someone that mains Viper, Dante, and Vergil, and you say to them that Wesker is better, when you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about, then you need to get off the forums and go get some experience. No one is saying Wesker is trash, they’re just saying that he isn’t all people crack him up to be.

At the moment, you are theory-fighting. Experience and knowledge trump theory-fighting every time.

hammer gets air thrown into combo of choice by wesker. it was completely possible in vanilla and its even easier now since theres more vulnerable start up frames.

or he can just react with rhino charge since that move takes forever to come out.