There is an interesting interview with Daigo and in the interview he discusses this very topic. Its a real good read…
Lol @ people trying to downplay disparities or the fact that US players have been getting owned by Japan.
I’m not a Japanophile and I understand pride in where you come from, but some of you are just blind. You try to rationalize how Justin or whoever is a better player even when he loses.
You sound like the guy at the arcade that throws a fit and screams about the sticks.
Who wins, wins. The rest is bullshit.
EDIT: I think a lot of the metagaming fucks up the US scene. People trying to push to get other people to do certain things, practice in certain ways, or switch characters to try to win. While doing anything to win is a mentality I can understand and agree with, I think there’s times where it can be misguided and work against you. Looking at the SBO results it’s funny to see hondas and chuns and shit up there.
I like how the good US players who’ve been to japan TO COMPETE are saying we compete but the US players who never been to japan to compete are saying we don’t. That’s only further proof that 90% of you guys are idiots.
After jan\floe posted up in here saying that we can, I don’t know why any of you guys are saying other wise since you’ve probably never been. Personally, I’ve never been but I’m not going to shit on a top players word. Especially when you have multiple top players saying the same thing.
Instead of referring to what other people think, why not just look at the matches?
There’s a lot of things that are clear:
- US’s knowledge is not on par
- US’s execution is not on par and when they get an opportunity, they usually mess it up because they aren’t ready for it (compare this with Japan being able to execute crazy things in very tight demanding situations)
- The layers in the mindgames are not as developed, and part of the reason is that the Japanese are beyond the execution hurdles that American players face. It’s obvious that when your execution is so good that you can do anything you want without thinking about it, you can focus more on the midngames.
Tournament results don’t lie.
“i know the answer to this question because i watch youtube match videos all the time and i have the SBO dvd collection so i can tell u japan has better execution and blah blah blah…”
[quote=“Emil, post:139, topic:86411”]
No you missed the point. Sure, Japanese players use top retarded characters too, and O Sagat is a top retarded character, but the problem is that Japan has soft banned him. He is considerably better than most characters in the game and is very autopilot at. In addition, the fact that they have soft banned him means they generally don’t have nearly as much experience with him. Regardless of whether it’s Japan’s fault for softbannig him (and ultimately having low experience against him), the point still stands that he is extremely good and not many are experienced at fighting him.
QUOTE]
Are the match vids out there of Taira and Noguchi bringing him out in tournament indicative of anything more than isolated uses of him? How many OS users would it take to make the soft ban useless in practice?
True that will always be a problem.
On the contrary, you just don’t want that. But then again remind me who you are? :wonder:
Jpj1983- The irony about that statement Emil said is that HE IS A TRUE JAPANESE DICKRIDER. U think Japanese dickrider, U THINK EMIL. No joke, he’s like the biggest Japanese dickrider ON SRK I SHIT YOU NOT and everyone knows that! I can’t think of anyone that slobs that Japanese Nob like Emil does!
look @ this from a different perspective. An mvc2 perspective.
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US knowledge not on par with japan. America’s knowledge about this game is surely #1 in the world as far tournament knowledge is concerned. Japan has never won this game @ EVO ever and they practically quit after a few years.
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US execution not on par with japan? in mvc2, we pretty much dominate the execution department. Sure the japanese created some things we use very often now but we still do it better than them easy.
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The layers in the mind games aren’t as developed? If there’s 1 game that fully tests mind game layers, its going to be mvc2. Japan can’t compete with our best marvel heads here hands down. I’m even willing to say that some of our B+ players could take out the best player from japan in mvc2.
by this comparison, we’re just as capable as they are in terms of natural skill levels. Its obvious that the talent in america is there to compete vs japan. When I say that america competes vs japan, its because we’ve already proved it once with mvc2 with COMPLETE dominance. There has never been a foreigner to ever win this game here in the states for 10 years.
If japan is supposed to be this 10 headed monster with super execution, they would of done it with mvc2 and they didn’t. Not sure if you remember the b5 results for mvc2 but it was like 20-2 or something horrendous to that degree.
HAHAHA burn!
LOL, Emil post are hilarious, and wreaks of blatant Japanese cock sucking. Emil has proven in the past that he knows nothing about ST, so he has no creditability on this matter. The O. Sagat argument probably would hold some weight if Japan had no idea how to fight him. Japan has beaten O.Sagat with the stock ST characters on numerous occasions, and at many Evos. But I guess Emil don’t want to talk about it.
Emil’s argument would also make some sense if O. Sagat beat everyone in the game for free. He struggles against the likes of Dhalsim and Balrog. And there are more than enough characters in the game who can fight him. The reason why USA wins with O. Sagat is because they have exceptional skills in SF in general. Contrary to popular believe, but advance SF tactics like spacing, footsies, and zoning are necessary to have a deadly O. Sagat. I’m sure if your average scrub was using him, Japan would rape them free. Valle, Choi, Watson, the Wolfes are all better than average ST players. THAT’S why they win.
O. Sagat isn't anymore retarded than Vega or anymore in top tier status in ST. Yeah it takes a lot to make ST Dhalsim the monster he is, but that doesn't make him any less retarded. And Balrog is almost easy mode compared to O. Sagat. Seriously!
Bottomline, the USA can fuck with Japan in ST. You may want to deny it, but that’s just facts and it’s been proven time and time again. I’m sure top Japan ST players will co-sign on that one too.
they tried to play it but got owned too hard by the usa so they settled with 3rd strike, so…
Somebody needs to rep this man a thousand times.
Back in '01 and '02 when I was heavy in the scene, kids would take bits and pieces…nowadays motherfuckers go by the god damned book.
Nobody just…plays anymore.
Not just the arcade scene but early game launches and developer kit insider hook ups help out japan.
How does O.Sagat ‘struggle’ against Sim or Boxer. A struggle would imply a deeply one sided match. In ST, I’m thinking something like [media=youtube]LX4l4NBqCyk&#t=5m10s"]N.Cammy vs N.Hawk (a match rated 8.5-1.5 in favor of Cammy by K and Nakamura) or [(a match that everyone is familiar with being favored one way). A match that is highly lopsided is where I would expect a struggle.
What possible evidence is there to suggest that O.Sagat struggles against Boxer in the same way that other characters struggle in their most difficult matches? O.Sagat at worst against Boxer is even. Against Sim it isn’t as much as an uphill battle compared to other matches in ST at least in my opinion. But even then, if I accept that O.Sagat loses overly to Sim, that means that O.Sagat has only one terrible match (two if you count Claw but the implication was that Sim is the best counter to O.Sagat, at least that’s how I interpreted the post).
You say that O.Sagat has “more than enough characters” that can beat him. But isn’t the reason that O.Sagat is [URL=“http://blog.capcom.com/archives/1041”]soft banned in Japan](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WWXULh76f4&#t=1m01s"[/media) is because he immediately makes a good number of characters chance of winning decrease significantly to the point where choosing those characters in a tournament that allows O.Sagat entries is pointless?
The article linked above is Sirlin talking about how R.Sagat had to be balanced around aspects from both O.Sagat and N.Sagat for ST:HD Remix, and in it he talks about how O.Sagat was soft banned in Japan. Here’s the quote:
And here’s a section from Sirlin.Net posted by FMJaguar, I believe taken from Sirlin’s book Playing to Win, regarding cheating:
Look at the character variety in Japanese tournaments and then look at the minimal variety at EVO. Perhaps no one in the U.S. is willing to invest in picking other characters because they know that they stand little chance in a best of three or five game series against O.Sagat. Or perhaps people don’t choose characters of a wider variety in the U.S. because they don’t feel confident enough that they can be as competitive with a lower tiered character.
Nevertheless people are erroneously stating that there are more than enough characters in ST to beat O.Sagat when that is simply not the case. The reason that O.Sagat is heavily frowned upon being used in Japan is that his appearance in a tournament setting immediately dissuades or discourages people from using characters that stand little chance against him which is most of the cast and not just a few characters.
But even if we lie to ourselves and falsely acknowledge that O.Sagat can be beaten by the majority of the cast, then why do we have so little character variety for high level ST in the U.S. compared to Japan then? If O.Sagat isn’t to blame then what is?
We have no American players who can even dream of being as good as the best Japanese T.Hawk specialists. Our best answers to Dictator and Cammy pale in comparison to Taira or Oota respectively. Do we have a Sim player on par with Gian or KKY? A Honda on Kusumondo’s level? An O.Honda on Shogatsu’s level? If you go character by character we maybe can match the Japanese at high levels with how many from the cast of ST? What is the U.S. scene from generating a T.Hawk specialist on par with Toutanki or Inomata? Or developing a Blanka on Komoda’s level? Or an O.Honda expert like Shogatsu?
So if we don’t match up against the Japanese for those characters…who do we match up against? Ryu? Are Valle and Choi as good as ShootingD? O.Sagat? But the Japanese don’t even play O.Sagat that often to have a valid comparison to an individual player. And what are [media=youtube]cbMllTeLTR0"]Daigo’s results at international tournaments when he uses O.Sagat (he’s the only Japanese player I’ve seen frequent O.Sagat so I chose him)? Does he have a winning record in O.Sagat mirrors versus U.S. players? Maybe even a winning record against non-Japanese O.Sagats overall using any character in ST? The Japanese soft ban O.Sagat but then players like Kuni beat our O.Sagat players with Zangief (watch all of the Kuni matches on the EVO2004 DVD). But when Kuni goes up against a [(Daigo in this case), who isn’t even an O.Sagat specialist, what happens?
I know that many people like to claim that O.Sagat is soft banned in Japan because he is ‘auto pilot’ but then we have posters saying “Contrary to popular believe, but advance SF tactics like spacing, footsies, and zoning are necessary to have a deadly O. Sagat”, like below.
So which is it? Does O.Sagat take a lot of skill to win and he’s soft banned in Japan because he’s too powerful. Meaning our best players who use O.Sagat at EVO have to rely on O.Sagat to win at high levels. Or is Sagat auto-pilot and easy mode and that’s why he’s soft banned (and that’s why so many top U.S. players pick him because he’s 'easy mode)? Meaning American players lack the ability to succeed at the highest levels with O.Hawk or N. Cammy or whoever.
The section from Playing to Win linked above stated that Chun is not even a viable character against O.Sagat yet [media=youtube]SXXo2PXS3nE"]Ohnuki at EVO2008](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WbMnOo669I"[/media) was almost able to [URL=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNbwXq3zPGI”[/media] Choi’s O.Sagat though he ended up losing in the grand finals overall.
This is stupid. You are cherry picking O.Sagat. Believe it or not…every character in ST takes skill to win with. A complete noob picking Gouki won’t win an ST tournament in Japan if he’s facing Taira or Otochun.
No one is saying that merely picking O.Sagat is a free win. But at high levels, two equal players going at each other, the one who picks a favored character in that match has better odds to win. And O.Sagat is enormously favored enough in Japan that he’s soft banned.
Yet the Japanese only look down on Claw’s wall dives. Hyou Bal style of play where a Claw player overly relies on using the wall dive loop to win. Some players try to soft ban the wall dive loop from their style of play to some extent (though some break it out in a pinch).
Yet even with the power of the wall dive loop the Japanese felt more comfortable soft banning O.Sagat than Claw. So obviously O.Sagat is more powerful than Claw at least according to the entire Japanese arcade ST scene.
“Fuck with”? No. Hang with? Barely.
Aside from a few very high level U.S. players like Choi, Valle, and Graham, who else can honestly even keep up with Japanese players like Taira, Otochun, Tamashima, Nakamura, Kusumondo, Tasaka, Toutanki, Inomata, Gunze, Ponymura, K, YuuVega, Mattsun, Aniken, ShootingD, Noguchi, Shogatsu, Komoda?
How many U.S. players are comparable to Taira or Otochun? Zero in my opinion.
Now if you move down the ladder to mid level ST. How many mid level U.S. players could hang with mid level Japanese? Absolutely zero.
Anyone can pull out the “if you think the Japanese are better than the U.S. then you are a dickrider” card but the simple fact is that I would love nothing more than to have an ST (or VF) scene like Japan has. Where top players regularly meet up in crowded arcades and play each other for hours. But instead we don’t have that. And that is why we will never be on par with the Japanese in any game that they take seriously.
Fuudo, a grandmaster SFIV Ryu player (who is rated at Daigo’s level so maybe some people at SRK are familiar with him), is also one of the best Virtua Fighter players in the world. He recently went to the World Cyber Games competition to play against some of the best non-Japanese VF players. Not only did he get first place in the official competition, but in casuals, of the matches he played against various players, I believe he lost less than ten. In fact here is the match totals of the casuals of Fuudo versus the best foreign (non-Japanese) VF players.
That is the skill gap that I see between the Japanese and the U.S. in not just VF but in 3S, ST, and sadly even SFIV.
How do you figure? I’ve never claimed to be any one important.
The obvious answer to your statement is…that they don’t take the game seriously? Not sure how you can compare the US/Japanese seriousness of ST with that of MvC2.
Yes, and what does that say about Japan? That they have great adaptation and in the long run, even if you’re using O Sagat, you probably won’t win. However, them beating O Sagats on numerous occasions doesn’t nullify the statement that it is a hard matchup, especially for the Japanese that have softbanned him, and that the majority of the times that Japan does lose to an american in ST, it is to O Sagat.
The problem is that at many ranges, O Sagat can chuck fierce tiger shots without fear (and thus going autopilot) and it takes a considerable amount of effort on the defender to get around that. He can’t just stick around and block because the tiger shots don’t end and the chip piles up quickly. When Daigo is fighting O Sagats, he’s frantically jumping for sometimes 5+ seconds at a time just trying to evade it, and it generally requires anticipation as to whether a fierce or a slower one was thrown. It’s obvious he (and any of the other japanese players) struggle the most against O Sagat and it isn’t necessarily because of the superior footsies/spacing (even though yes, Valle/Choi has good spacing).
You’re delusional. Choi, Valle, Watson, etc are good but you’re out of your mind to put them on the levle of Taira, Pony, Gian, Kurahashi, etc etc. It really boggles my mind how some people can be making these claims, do you even watch the matches?
I’ll say this, the majority of TOP US players can’t even hang with Muteki’s girlfriend, Chamu (who plays Chun-Li).
[media=youtube]7_58micOxw4[/media]
Quite a lot of Japanese players lose to her as well. She has a strong Chun!
If this is the case, next year’s Evo with SSF4 could be an interesting case study.
WTF? Chamu is Muteki’s girlfriend? You learn something new every day. :looney:
To those that keep bringing up MvC2, big deal. That’s one game for the US compared to Japan’s like 5 or more games.
This is one of the dumbest things I’ve read this year.
No, the US cannot fuck with Japan.
When have they ever?
The only time I recall the US winning ST against the Japanese was when Choi beat Nuki at EVO2K8. Not to take away from John or anything.
Other than that, it’s been the Japanese who have dominated America. I guarantee you that had John not picked O. Sagat, the results would have been different.
Compare how many top players there are in Japan as opposed to the US. There’s at least 20-30 top players in Japan compared to the US’ 3-5.
So no, the US cannot fuck with Japan in ST.
Keep in mind that in Japan, every fighting game has a group of dedicated players, meaning that there are people who play only specific game and that’s it. They are specialists when it comes to their game.
I find it very hard to believe that even the US’ top ST players could take down Japan’s ST specialists.
Sure, maybe Nuki and Tokido, but ST isn’t even one of their main games. I mean, when was the last time you saw either of these two at big ST tournaments in Japan (ie - Star Cup)? The only time you see them is during SBO.
To the dude above me; don’t forget the Wolfe brother’s showing at SBO 2007, where they defeated Komoda and Otochun in the first round. Graham against Otochun was an especially good fight. Granted, SBO '07 was AE, which sucks balls. I agree with your general contention though. Japan has a way, way stronger overall playerbase. Hell, Graham himself said that “the moment we walked into their arcade we saw stuff that we would never see back in the States… our players lack the complexity to pull off that stuff…”