Er, can you rephrase that? ^_^;;
Figures that HK is throwable, it has stupid start-up and doesn’t move back like Urien’s HK or Makoto’s HK. It’s the way those characters move back during the animation that makes those moves unthrowable, not some special property on the move itself. The Akuma f+MP being unthrowable on arcade is a glitch, which is why it was corrected for console. I thought it might have worked, oh well.
So I guess the only way you can ‘beat’ throws depends on the situation. After you do IAD LP (blocked), you can either throw as usual or go into cr.LK xx LP AXE xx SAI (if you have it). Again, it’s a range issue, if you do the IAD LP hella deep then they can throw you out of the cr.LK but 99% of the time, the cr.LK xx LP AXE will beat the throwing player. Stuff like that.
Again, it depends. If you play to a simple pattern and go for throws at the same time, you can bet that eventually, the other player will start going for anti-throw stuff because he has learnt when the throw is coming. Some shoto players I play against will always DP after blocking IAD LP if I don’t have meter, for example, because they know it will beat throw and I can’t punish too hard if I block anyway.
Hey, how often do you guys use his taunt? And what move do you go for if you’re safe enough?
Sometimes after directional throw (not neutral, obviously) and sometimes after EX NDL from over half-screen away. I think those two are the only truly ‘safe’ ways of taunting.
I don’t really do it that much but I do think it’s a valid tactic. I tend to use it most on turtle players, just to see how they react to it. If they carry on turtling, I know in future I can turn invisible and attack if the situation arises. If they panic and start attacking, then I’ve stopped them turtling and can hopefully use that to my advantage.
Landing after XFLAT leaves you in perfect crossup position, just noticed this yesterday.
If mk xx XFLAT wasn’t the only way to combo the damn thing, maybe I’d use it more often. :chainsaw:
I’d use it a lot more if it did the same damage air-to-air as it did air-to-ground…
That too.
As if it’s not one of the easiest supers to parry anyway.
Aaaah! So THIS explains THAT! ty
Random info:
If opponent is cornered and you throw him towards the corner, you can walk a very small step, then standing MK; this puts you on the perfect distance for UOH xx SAI against shotos and probably other characters.
Also, if they dont tech roll after neutral throw, you’re automatically at the good distance for UOH xx SAI.
That’s a nice trick there whitecrowz. I don’t have any set-ups for UOH > SAI myself, just sometimes chance it when I’m standing at the right range, so it’s good to know stuff like that.
Do you guys think it’s safe to spam the shit out of standing far mp? Against non SA3 Ken type situation of course, meaning even if it’s parried, you’re not exactly fucked.
A lot of characters can either crouch it (Ibuki, Oro, twins) or have pokes that beat it clean (Urien, Hugo, shotos). Makoto can even dash under it, Oro might be able to as well. So you can’t ever abuse it.
The only match-up where I use it a lot is against Hugo, to stop him jumping. Hugo’s cr.MK is the only poke that beats it so if he isn’t using cr.MK too much, go for it. A lot of Hugos either don’t have experience with the match-up or are too busy concentrating on everything else Twelve is doing, so they can forget about their own cr.MK. It’s also a very good poke against Q too but you probably want to avoid that kind of mid-range poking game against him anyway, the risk/reward isn’t really in your favour.
I use it a lot against Dudley too, his jump can’t clear it too well so it’s a nice poke if you pre-empt jumping attempts. Again, you want to stay away from that mid-range game if possible but if you get into st.MP range, it’s a pretty good poke and also a good distance to use cr.MP as an anti-air for his jump-ins, one of the few instances where it becomes practical. But if Dudley is spamming st.HK to try and get an EX Machine Gun Blow combo going, don’t even think about pressing that button lol it’s really not worth it.
Er… and that’s it. The problem is really that most characters can duck/outpoke it without too much hassle, which is why cr.MK is better in 99% of situations where range isn’t an issue. It would be great if Twelve had a nice mid-hitting poke like Ryu’s st.MK or Ken’s st.HK, because then you’d have something from distance that can’t be parried low (without the guess-what-move-I’m-going-for start-up of Twelve’s st.HK).
Try it against different characters and see what you come up with. I used it a lot when I first started playing Twelve but I’ve slowly steered clear over the years, I think it’s one of those moves that looks a lot better than it actually is…
Well, admittedly I haven’t utilized his cr.MK as much as I probably should have been doing. I find a lot of my matches turning into “guess if im gonna cross you over with IAD” battles, which I think needs to stop now.
There are some match-ups where you can’t go wild in the air (Urien, Ken, Oro, etc), so it’s a good idea to develop a ground poking game so you know what to do when the aerial options get shut down.
The problem then becomes, how do you stop them from low parrying when cr.MK is Twelve’s only decent mid-range poke and doesn’t even lead into major damage. But hey, there’s a reason why he’s bottom tier, right?
Yeah. In the end it’s all about how well you can trick people.
Yup yup. And the more ways you know how to play, the more you can switch it up and come up with new answers whenever you run into problems. I think being versatile is the key to being a good Twelve player.
Shame there aren’t more people reading/posting. It’s tempting to do a full match-up thread for people to contribute to but with SFIV round the corner and Twelve being one of the more unpopular characters, I guess there’s not much love for him these days.
There never was any love =[
And in SF4 I have to use Vega, because he’s the closest thing to Twelve.
Seeing as there’s not much talk going on right now, thought I’d copy pasta these match-ups from the Japanese tierings:
ch yu ke ma du ya go ur ib ry or el ne al re _q tw hu se
tw 3 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 4 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 - 6 6
If the coding makes it too hard to read (I know I’m too lazy to scroll lol), here’s the easy to read format:
Yun 2-8
Ken 2-8
Chun 3-7
Makoto 3-7
Dudley 3-7
Yang 3-7
Akuma 3-7
Urien 3-7
Ryu 3-7
Oro 3-7
Ibuki 4-6
Elena 4-6
Necro 4-6
Alex 4-6
Remy 4-6
Q 4-6
Hugo 6-4
Sean 6-4
It would be cool to hear people’s opinions on these match-ups.
I remember when Thongboy Bebop made that Twelve tutorial vid a couple of years back and it said Elena was a near impossible to win match-up. He said it was because of Elena’s back+HK beating everything Twelve has and a lot of people blindly agreed, probably because 1) only a few people play Elena and 2) even fewer people play Twelve. I always thought that was wrong, because Chun-Li’s back+HP and Dudley’s HK were just as troublesome plus those moves lead into MAJOR damage, but some people still insisted Elena was Twelve’s hardest match-up! It used to drive me mad. I actually think EX Rhino Horn is a bigger pain in the ass than Elena’s back+HK but anyway…
In my experience, Yun has felt more like a 3-7 match-up (random activations can be avoided, EX NDL very helpful in the match-up) while Urien has always felt like a 2-8 match-up (I think in nearly all his match-ups, Twelve can afford to make at least two major mistakes but against Urien, he can only make one). Oro also feels like a 2-8 match-up but I think that’s because the Oro player here is way better than me, so the gap between the two characters stretches further. It probably is a 3-7 match-up, just I (still) haven’t figured it out yet.
Anyway, just wanted to know what match-ups you guys struggle with and if you disagree with any of the match-ups listed above.
Ibuki should be 6-4 in Twelve’s favor, I have fought A LOT of high level Ibuki’s and she doesn’t have anything in particular that should be hard to overcome for Twelve. Also, she actually takes damage.
[media=youtube]6aCNfpbksao[/media]
Guys
Instant EX A.X.E, like how Makoto does it with EX Tsurugi (or whatever the air kick is called)
This shit, wins matches.