Ubersaurus: so true. Every last bit of it, especially the annoying sounds. Your post would make a great note for this thread to die on. It has been 5 pages since an enlightening insight and now people are arguing that 2+2=4 in street fighter but 2+2=6 in “anime fighters.” might as well start arguing that Ken wears red, but ragna actually wears crimson which allows you better options for finding matching shoes.
You haven’t bothered to read all of my posts, have you?
I don’t think that’s what Shiki means at all. Really, as far as I can tell, he’s trying to argue that a 6-4 in VS is fundamentally different from a 6-4 is SF due to the increased number of options at every character’s disposal in VS. I’m arguing that the number of options doesn’t change anything since match-up lists are based on a theoretical optimal level of play. At this level of play, both players have a perfect understanding of the game’s mechanics, of their character, and of their opponent’s character. The number of options only presents issue below this theoretical perfect level, as without a perfect understanding of the game it’s impossible for a player to fully utilize all of his or her character’s options.
And once again, here is where your fault lies. You cannot take numbers in a match-up chart that literally.
Justifying something as precise as “Zabel will win almost 70% of his matches against an equally skilled Lilith” is just about impossible.
One top ranked Zabel player may think it’s 65%-35%. Another may think it’s closer to 55%-45%.
In the end, the most concrete opinion from the chart you can draw is that:
A) Zabel is generally considered to be one of the strongest characters in the game, and Lilith is generally considered to be one of the weakest
and
B) Zabel is generally considered to have an advantage in his match-up against Lilith
Thus, match-up chart numbers should be taken with copious more grains of salt that hard tier lists, and the numbers should not be confused with scientifically proven statistics.
To think otherwise is where we can get insane opinions, like yours, where you look at two completely different and arbitrary match-up charts and come to the inane conclusion that SF4 is more balanced than VS because VS supposedly has more 7-3 match-ups.
And once again, since you have dodged the question: do you actually PLAY or know ANYTHING about Vampire Savior?
By the way, age of the game has NOTHING to do with it.
If you read nohoho’s blog when he was trying to make a match-up chart for ST with multiple top US players’ opinions you can see why there is so much variance between match-up chart number opinion that it’s a joke to take them too precisely.
I mean, everyone pretty much knows that Ryu vs. Honda is a bad match-up for Honda in ST, but in that case it had people arguing everything from 6-4 to 9-1 for Ryu.
Glad to see at least some people still have some sense on the board, though.
Again, read what I said above and try getting an education so that you can learn the difference between mathematical fact and an arbitrary statistic.
When you think about it, there isn’t much of a difference between KOF, SF or BB. If you are capable of telling the difference, then you should know others are not capable of doing so. If someone could “define with examples” of how to balance a game, I would like to hear it.
Now that you’ve finally gone out of your way to post your opinion on the matter in its entirety, Shiki, I can say for certain that I actually agree with you. I suppose I’ve put a bit too much faith in the individuals who have compiled these lists, as I’ve been operating under the assumption that they’ve been going about it in statistically proper manner. I figured that for the most part they were collecting tournament data and analyzing it to get those numbers. At least, that’s what I would have done. Player input would then come into play when trying to determine whether a match-up is, say, 6-4 or 6.5-3.5.
So, in the end, my problem was that I assume the people who make these lists actually utilize, you know, proper statistical methods. Just because that’s what I would do, doesn’t mean that’s what anyone else would do.
EDIT: Just looked at the ST tier list on nonoho’s blog. Wow, that’s some crazy variation. Of course, he only has four people at most giving opinions for any given character. That’s way too few people to be an accurate indicator of anything.
Not that it has usually been me playing it (I didn’t actually start playing around with em until a couple years ago, and we’re talking like 10 years of seeing others play GG,) but I see a lot more “COUNTER!” declarations popping up just from basic “one attack outprioritizes the other.” At least SF brings up the text and leaves it at that.
i think for anime fighters you pretty much have to run it all on theory fighter due to the skill cap issues, so the number is really arbitrary.
and i get the feeling some people rate bad matchups worse (in general not specifically for VS i know shit all about that game) because they’re boring to play?
street fighter matchup charts could way more easily be handled with tournament data from japan or something, i’m kind of surprised they’re still based on player opinions at this point.
There’s only a handful of major counterhit combos in Street Fighter, and honestly they’re kind of dumb. The way A3 did it with the massive hit freeze was better than just having text, anyways. In BB that counter message is a huge deal.
sort of funny how the people talking about matchup charts in different games are all basically saying the same thing and basically arguing about how they should say it.
Nope, it’s pretty much all speculation and opinion
Tier list don’t mean shit and Capcom will NEVER balance a SF game because of the casual SF community. Balance SF = unfair/difficult for casual players.(see Adon’s SSF4 frame data)
Good job, at least we have a happy ending and everyone has learned something for it.
4 players per character is actually more than what usually goes into a match-up chart.
Think about it though–matchup charts are supposed to assume that you have two players who are not only both equal in skill, but have to play the character at their full potential.
Exactly how players per character can you reasonably say are playing any given character in the game at their maximum potential? Then of those, how can you be sure that when testing a match-up, that both players are truly equal in skill?
Think about the logistics of actually scientifically compiling numbers by actually getting two master players of equal skill to play at least 10 matches of every single matchup in any game.
EDIT:
nonoho’s compiled US player ST match-up chart, for those who are actually curious:
exactly. Balanced slow paced defensive games don’t sell to noobs. Thats why they hardly sell them. Casuals want fast paced game that are flashy,easy to grasp offenses and broken as hell.
thats funny bc sf4 sold pretty well???
Think he was being tongue in cheek. But can’t tell.
which one of us ahahah right
Yet they are about to release MvC3. PHAIL.
Its not balanced.The Ultras are casual friendly. I wonder what sf4 would be like if there were no ultras.
How much did DC vs MK sold? hmmmm?
As much as I loathe Street Fighter for never really changing, never balancing any characters, intentionally make one sided matches by character picks, mess up my favorite characters while adding even crapper new characters, intentionally make counters impossible to use and most grabs impossible to tech grab and priority to the point where its not even a fighting game but a waiting one. Even the ultra combo’s tick me off. But the very least its not as stupid or just damn retarded as having to learn a combo to beat someone in reality of only using 2 to 4 moves that connect.
I guess in the fighting game community, there are SF and DOA type fans.
to reply to viscant, I think ssf4 is about spacing and working your opponent into the corner, then killing them for trying to escape,
Or knocking them down and mixing them up.
You do know that spacing is merely anything with space so in reality anything with space requires spacing. As simple as Mario jumping in the air to hit that box for a coin.
A corner is nothing fancy, its just that people tend to have their minds blown out when cornered, then again there might not be that many options in a 2D game where such things occur.