QFViscant’s always awesome posts.
a little more insight about vampire savior.
latest tier list, made this year
Zabel
Sassypants
Qbee
galleon
aubath
felicia
bb
bish
leilei
Demitri
morrigan
lilith
jedah
victor
anakaris
DCC is the vampire savior championships in japan from what I’ve read.
DCC 2k6
- sakai 2ya: raptor\raptor
2. mandara\oboro: demitri\victor
3. ogawa\hachioji: raptor:lilith
DCC 2k8
- pepper
ath: hood\sas
2. today l\ouchi jedda: felicia\jedah
3. thriftyperson\kaji: jedah\lilith
DCC 2k9
- dd
ath: sas\sas
**2. mandara 2ya: demitri\raptor - thriftyperson\kaji: jedah\lilith**
Typically the older a game gets, the lower tier characters get worse IN MOST GAMES. Their options get figured out and they typically don’t have anything else to fall back on. Vampire saviors few last big tournaments, you have lilith\jedah\victor placing in the top 3 @ a major tournament full of killers. Look @ where those 3 characters are, basically the bottom of the list.
How many other games allow low tier characters to compete after 10+ years of play? ST isn’t even as balanced as vampire savior.
ssf4 watered down their game play and STILL can’t achieve the same type of balance. vampire savior allows every character to shine and doesn’t water down the game play and its definitely the more balanced game. Current capcom can’t make a decent fighter if their life depended on it. Thats why the keep rehashing shit from the depths because all of the creativity is gone from the company.
Come to think of it, for a game to cater to the casuals, SF isn’t casual friendly enough. Ryu should have a single combo that takes all the opponents health while healing himself even with his projectiles. The rest should be forced in a manor of rock paper scissors making it near impossible to beat a counter pick but allowing special blocking on certain characters and allowing safe moves with a double damage output or halved based on who your versing. It may also be among the slowest fighting game this generation, but it should be slower because its casual friendly.
Dude, Shout? That’s completely dishonest. The matchup chart that came with that tier list you posted indicated that Savior is, in fact, considerably more imbalanced than SSFIV.
EDIT: http://livedoor.2.blogimg.jp/iamddsas23/imgs/7/7/7770c2a9.jpg
Notice how there’s only one 5-5 matchup in the entire game: Felicia versus Lei-Lei. See how Zabel only has good matchups and how Anakaris only has bad matchups. See the shockingly high number of 6.5-3.5 and 7-3 matchups? Yeah, Savior’s not even close to balanced, dawg. Those people who are placing highly with terrible characters are superhuman.
if VS is so imbalanced, then why do people keep playing top 3 with low tiers? And its different people if you wanna back track all the way through 1996.
If ssf4 is so balanced, where are the worst characters placing in BIG national tournaments? Then go throughout the whole VS era and see how many times a low tier character got top 3.
The game is honestly balanced and I find it funny that people are refrencing a matchup chart rather than looking @ tournament results. The game has allowed lower tier characters to win or get top 3 in VS since the dawn of the game. We’re talking about 16 years worth of low tiers getting top 3. If that isn’t balance, the I don’t know what is.
matchup charts don’t really mean shit when every character is crazy IMO.
What the tournament results are telling me is that there are people who are amazingly good at VS. These players are so much better than the other VS players that they can succeed at the highest level while using extraordinarily weak characters. It’s like Kuroda and Third Strike. He’s so goddamned good at the game that it doesn’t matter who he picks; his understanding of the game is so much better than everyone else’s that he can win using anyone. Same situation here.
The reason we haven’t seen this happen yet in SSFIV is because the game’s only a couple months old. No one has a a serious understanding of how the game functions. At least, not on a Kuroda-Third Strike level. I mean, Third Strike has been out for 11 years now, and Savior’s been out for 14. Given that same span of time, I’m sure that eventually we’ll see some amazing Hakan, Makoto, Dan, or Gen player who just rapes everyone. That is of course, if the pending arcade revision doesn’t completely shift the balance of the game and if anyone will still be playing SSFIV in ten years.
I agree that GGAC is the better game, but, if you think there are no 7-3 matches, stop kidding yourself.
On topic, this is seriously one of the worst threads on the board. If you want 5-5s across the board, play sf1.
Bridget versus Testament? Johnny versus Potemkin? I dunno.
low tier characters in VS have been doing well from the birth of the game iirc. The balance was immediately noticed. It didn’t take them 10 years to reach that level.
I fully understand what you’re saying and for some other games like 3s, it applies. Now in VS’s case, I don’t think thats accurate but I could be wrong. Pretty sure kaji has been around forever and he’s one of the best players for the game while running one of the weakest characters.
according to the matchup chart you posted up, raptor vs lilith is 7-3.
[media=youtube]y6jeBqrePp4[/media]
does that look like a 7-3 fight to anyone else? you have 2 high level tournament players going @ it and the character with the disadvantage is controlling the whole round.
May vs Anji is vastly in May’s favor.
Zappa vs Johnny is so weighted in ZA’s favor, I’ve heard people call it 8-2… Most people leave it at 7-3, though.
Granted most bad matches in the game are 6-4 or 6.5-3.5, but, there are some really bad matches in the game.
indeed they are, but there is also the fact that even when there are bad matches, you never felt defenseles, since you feel that you got outplayed more than got powned because your char sucks, wich is what shoult is trying to imply on VS
It’s just you scrubs that put meaning in that number which should have none.
Its people like you just xcopy vids with out the knowledge on how it works. And bitch when someone tries to to go against it and uses what goes against grain and beat Justin Wong. Tiers are for scrubs that argue about balance instead of playing the games.
What happened to talk about the problems with said engine instead of focusing on the games balance?
Nah, I agree, VS is a good game… GGAC IMO is basically ST of anime games, and on par with it on a whole, as far as fighting games go.
And even though, I’m not a fan of the 4 series, I do feel Super is relatively balanced, and this is coming from a Sakura player.
Dude, I’M A FUCKING MATHEMATICIAN.
I TAKE NUMBERS SERIOUSLY. IT’S MY FUCKING JOB.
An accurate match-up list reflects the reality of how the game operates at the highest level. Now, these numbers didn’t pop out of thin air; they’ve got 14 years of tournament data behind them and the collective knowledge of a many tournament-level Savior players. Thus, I have reason to believe that his match-up list is, in fact, accurate. If it’s accurate, then Vampire Savior is indeed quite imbalanced and it would likely be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to prevent evidence that argues otherwise. These numbers, however, don’t determine who wins or loses in a fight; the players do. These numbers merely tell us that certain characters have tools which put them at advantage or disadvantage against other characters. It doesn’t tell us how people are going to perform because matchup lists don’t take into account the “human” factor. It is merely an analysis of the characters and the system under which they are operating.
Now, when I see Raptor versus Anakaris being 8-2, what I see is that Raptor has a significant advantage against Anakaris due to the characters’ respective tools. That does not mean, however, that the matchup is impossible. That simply means that the Anakaris player is going to have to work much harder to win against the Raptor player than visa-versa. He’s going to really need to know the matchup and he’s going to need to be able to read the opponent well. He might also need to rely on the Raptor player making some mistakes. If the Anak player loses, he can’t blame the tier list for his failings, however. That was all him and his opponent.
So, I’m not exactly sure why you felt the need to go into a rant that has little relevance to what we’re discussing.
in hindsight, I realized something. The less options a game has, the worse off those 7-3 fights are. For instance in vampire savior, raptor vs lilith is a 7-3 fight but actually looking @ it, it doesn’t look like that. The reason being is that every character in VS has good amount of offensive options.
When you see a game like SF and look @ a 7-3, it truly looks like shit because of the lack of options going on.
So if games are actually going to progress with better balance, it seems that games with more options both on offense\defense actually make games more balanced which is why you see the worst characters in vampire savior\guilty gear actually win and the bad characters in ssf4 don’t.
Interesting. However, a 7-3 matchup is a 7-3 matchup regardless of how many options the characters in question have. Perhaps having more options presents the illusion, then, of greater balance?
i dont think its an “illusion” its actually providing more balance.
when a character has 3 options to use in a game and one of them gets taken away, he’s diminished his tool set by 1\3, 33%. Typically the slower games have less options.
when a character has 10 options and only loses 1, that characters is only affected by 10% instead of 33%.
The more options a game has actually provides better balance if both offensive\defensive options were created relative to one another. Which is why games like VS\GG allow low tier characters to compete.
I don’t think that’s an accurate comparison. It we’re assuming that match-ups are based around how many feasible options a character has, then losing 1 option in the first scenario is equivalent to losing 3.333~ options in the second.
Saying that a 7-3 matchups in one game with fewer options is more imbalanced than a 7-3 matchup is another game with more options just seems, well, wrong to me. They’re both 7-3 regardless of how many options the characters have.
Theoretically, a 7-3 is a 7-3. But it’s a lot easier for two players to, well, play it like a 7-3 when the matchup is simpler. The more variables you add in the more difficult it becomes for player to keep track of them all.
The idea of balancing is really to keep as many of the options you have viable so that you have interesting player vs. player competition.
Yeah it makes sense. The more options mean more you can do against any given situation.
Its how Capcom used to entice players to their new games is giving them a new feature as an option to use in game either guard cancels, chains, supers, and custom combos.
Character Balance is just an after thought if the engine is good.