Training Regimen

I feel u here Joz, i’ll rushdown, make stupid mistakes and eat it big time. I’ll end up losing lots of BP/PP to scrubs, and to top it of I’ll look for them again thinking “hell, no! I’m not losing to this guy!”, and It’ll happen again lol…
and again, until I get pissed and turn off the game. Has this happened to anyone else? Thank goodness I don’t gamble, I’d be broke!

as far as my training is concerned, I’ve been practicing J.HP, C.LP x3, C.MP xx EX FBA. the damage isn’t as much as J.HP, S.HP, C.MP xx EX FBA but I’ve managed to hit it several times here and there to mix up my jump in game. It seems to work on occasion. aside from that I’m trying to incorporate EX SHC crossup after a blocked jump in combo attempt where I’d normally end with EX FBA. It’s still a little hard for me to land this online though…

A month ago, I basically said as Jozhear said only in regards to the walking and looking for the hitconfirms into the combos. I hit confirm into everything now or rather I look for hit confirming into everything. It makes Vega extremely powerful if you use his walking speed and combo people at ranges that other’s can’t combo you at.

The main hit confirm I use is actually cr lp lol and cr mk. If you crouch block any move and you are unsure if your cr mp into Ex FBA will work, then throw out cr lp into cr mp into Ex FBA. I hit with my cr lp hit confirm the most since I practiced that so much. From a jump in or w/e. Also another thing I like to do is NJ FK and hit the opponent with the tip of the FK since the hitbox starts low, which I can then hit confirm into cr lp cr mp EX FBA.

Also I use the range on Vega’s jump attacks to get my hit confirms rather than always hitting deep. This way I can dodge an opponents grab attempt or FB and still hit him in time with FK since it extends very far downwards allowing me to hit confirm.

I had a few good videos where all I did was use hit confirms into EX FBA to win the match at very far distances. I even used the walking cr lp crlp cr mp into EX fbA. Although I just deleted all my Vega vids today lol.

When I realized this information I made the chart which I posted in this thread http://shoryuken.com/f264/vega-tips-along-chart-235867/ and talked about this. The chart tells you how far away you can combo people at using st lk cr lp cr mp into ex fba although it also tells you who can’t be hit at max range cr mp into ex FBA. This tells you alot about how far away you can do his other combos as well.

I haven’t been using Vega much recently though so w/e.

@ Jozhear- Honestly if you get those hitconfirms down and know how far you can combo and into what I bet it will increase your game significantly.

Although I’m certainly several leagues under you, Joz, I’d say I have this as a common issue as well. Often on bad days it just seems every opponent I face in ranked is doing constant jump-ins, which while unsafe is just stressful to defend against constantly online.

That said I think your advice in this thread will be very helpful overall. I am getting a TE stick this week (was using a Hori EX2 previously) and I hope to nail down some combos. I have always known combos are my weak point and that I have generally beaten players with mind games and mixups before, but I need to learn some decent combos and especially at least 1 good hitconfirm combo.

That said I know that personally no matter how much I train I won’t learn 1 frame links, so what do you think are the best combos to learn that aren’t 1 frame? cmk, cmp, exfba? sthp, crmp, exfba?

No. The one frame links are not as hard as you think. I can almost gaurentee you that with training mode practice you can get them down. The main combos I would suggest to you are the following from easiest to hardest.

  1. cr mk -> cr mp -> EX FBA
  2. cl HP -> cr mp -> Ex FBA
  3. cr lp -> cr mp -> Ex FBA
  4. cr lp -> cr lp (or cr mp)-> RCF
  5. cr lp -> cr lp - > cr mp -> EX FBA
  6. St lk -> cr lp -> cr mp -> EX FBA

Only number 1, 3, and 4 require previous charge time. If only so slightly.

The reason why I think that the st lk combo is by far the most difficult is because after a st lk you have to IMMEDIATELY hold down for the cr lp or the Ex FBA won’t come out, making it the hardest to hit confirm with. The others aren’t too hard to hit confirm.

Also I have been thinking about trade cl HP into something into Ex FBA, but I haven’t thought of what to follow after that, maybe a cr lp -> cr mp -> Ex FBA might work.

hey jozhear,dude…wtf? the most unsafe move you can possibly ever do would be a jump in attack followed by a crmk,didnt you know that all of the dp characters can shoryu inbetween your jump in hp,hk on block and the corresponding crmk?

dude its an option select,all of the japanese and singaporean players who have matchup experience against claw are going to mash dp or do stuff like blanka’s ex up ball,honda’s ex head butt EVERYTIME inbetween your blocked jump in attack and crmk till you stop using crmks after jump ins.yeah you could argue that you can start to bait dps after jump in attacks,but that would be branching out into an overly complicated mindgame.
crmk should only be used by itself outside of jump in attacks man.the very basics of using claw!

I disagree completely.

I can take care of the threat of a DP in a million ways. If I’m not pressing mk when I get to the ground, I might as well be doing nothing. Now that I know how to frame trap anyways, I know exactly when a mk would be safe and when it isn’t, and a mashed DP is honestly the least of my worries. Let them do it: other times I’ll just press a c. jab and bait the reversal normally. Obviously it’s a complicated mindgame that has risks but like I said, then why should I be jumping in in the first place? Why aren’t I getting SRK’d and EX Headbutt’d AS I’m jumping in? Why be afraid of the move after my jump in if I seemingly have no fear of exposing myself for 43 frames?

There’s no WRONG answer to do after a jump in. Hell you can frame trap with something as slow as Cosmic Heel, but, again, if I’m worried about getting owned by reversals I’m not jumping in. It just depends when you time your jump in. Besides, there are heights you can use that make jump ins to even close fierce a block string. C. MK is not universally unusable after a jump in. You just have to time it right and be aware of your opponents patterns, like any situation.

Well said Joz. I agree completely. Knowing how to attack at different ranges from jump ins is key. Knowing what to do after is just as important.

I should probably post my findings about Vega’s air game somewhere, since I find his air game to be essential for AA and offense in general.

Yeah dude, I think people misunderstand blockstun on jump ins and how they’re supposed to interact with your moves on the ground.

You can post that stuff but I think I learned just what I needed to looking at those hitboxes. J. Fierce has a lower hitbox then I though,t which basically means I should really think about using NJ MP. Thanks for mentioning that though, just another tool to add to my repertoire.

the whole philosophy of when and when not to jump in should be a calculated 50/50 guess on your part.either you guess wrong and get aa’ed or you guess right and they block/get hit by your jump in attack.so instead of looking at the idea of baiting an aa inbetween your jump in attack and the corresponding attack as a seperate calculated guessing game to that of jumping in,you should be looking at it as an extension of your jump in attack guessing game.you jump in on your opponent,you guess right by either landing a hit or forcing them to block,at this point you’re controlling the pace of the instance.so on block you can either choose to

A.complete the blockstring by making sure that the corresponding attack after the jump in attack is airtight.
B.make sure that the corresponding attack is airtight and throw in a couple more jabs,and at this point stop and try to bait your opponent.now this form of
baiting is an instance where there is already a bit of a gap inbetween you and your oppenent(thanks to your blockstring push) and he can either choose to
counter predict your bait and stay passive or aa and get punished.these are his only two answers,and him choosing either wont shift the control back to
him.either you gain more control over the match with him falling for the bait or the situation goes back to neutral.point b can be utilized to strengthen
the option of carrying out point A.

C.for having always been using a not so tight follow up normal after the jump in,you try to stop immediately after the jump in attack and try to bait his AA.
sure you might get lucky and keep the pressure on with him falling for your bait,but you’re also needlessly giving him options to take back his control since
not only could he have gone for an aa which you may not have baited,but he could also try and throw you or command grab you to counter your bait(thanks to the fact that you’d be sitting right next to him).so just after winning a 50-50 guessing game of jumping in,you’re needlessly giving him options to take control right back from you.

as vega,a crmk followup is so risky that you cannot even do a true combo out of landing an early jumpin hp and a crmk on a tall character like zangief.
using it then and there is fine,and for the reasons stated above,exclusively sticking to a crmk followup or a sthp is never a good idea.i mean sure,its a hell
a lot more easy compared to hitconfirming a crlp,but the kind of needless mindgame you again open up is just not worth it on block.

a crmk,sthp,cosmic heel all fall under the same category with regards as a jump in followup.all of them can be used sparingly when you arent being predictable and fool your opponent into thinking that you wouldnt be going for a loose block string.

maybe you’re not playing against opponents who dont know the fact that a crmk after a jump in attack on block is as loose as a cl sthp or a cosmic
heel.

so bottom line,it should always be airtight inbetween a jump in attack and the corresponding attack for the most part.

this is how the players in my community look at it.if you’re cool with multiple guessing games at every other instance,then even that is cool if it works out well for you.

i’m having a headache trying to sort this out.

that’s basically exactly what I’m talking abuot. I agree with yuor A, B, C. However if you’er pressing a bunch of jabs to create poke space, you are increasing the risk of eating DP / reversal. You press one c. mk, you are at poke space, kara throw range, overhead, CH, if it hits you got mixups, you got frame traps after it. C. mk and close fierce can be safe after late jump ins, but obviously not early jump ins which I think you’re talking about. In that case, yeah, c. jab. The only way I would early jump in on someone is if I were afraid of a normal attack AA liek c. fierces, as early jump ins beat them. In that case, I probably will press c. jab to hitconfirm or ST. Otherwise, I can always frame trap with c. mk and close fierce off of other later jump ins much more easily and with much better results. If someone has no meter and no charge or what have you, then they will probably freeze up and eat the jump in and I can pound them with frame traps and etc. That’s probably the only isntance in which yuo’d be jumping in anyway, or at least, that’s the only instance I will be jumping in.

What you’re saying about attacks being airtight after jump ins is totally true. I agree. Getting pounded by an EX Headbutt because I attacked from 10 feet up then tried close fierec will obviously never work. However, if yuo always do your jump ins and do air tight attacks, people will always block them all if they block the jump in. With c. fierce and c. mk you have much mroe reliable frame traps that still keep the guessing game heavily in your favor, especially against those aforementioned characters who can’t do anything about you jump in. That’s the point. Otherwise, you are basically playing air footsies and I normally don’t combo in those situatiosn anyway cause unless I have EX for barcelona knockdown I’ll just reset them and kara throw or apply poke pressure. But yeah, c. fierce and c. mk can totally be safe after jump ins, I tested it yesterday. Just gotta do em deep.

The point is, if you’re looking for jump in combos, you shouldn’t be looknig for jump in combos off of early jump ins because you straight up shouldn’t be using early jump ins unless you’re really trying to get in on a guile with threatening c. fierce or Sakura etc. If you want to jump in combo, jump in deep agaisnt characters who you aren’t takign such heavy risks against, like meterless honda, guile just after a sonic boom, etc. You might as well always deep jump in in those scenarios, and if yuo do, you have a bevy of frame traps that are easy to execute, always put you at poke distance on block, are safer than c. jab, and requier less guessing which is what you were saying is bad about my strat in the first place. If you really want to be safe, just do the jump in a tad later and do the airtight oens like you said, but again, if they block the jump in they block it all and your advantage is lessened considerably. Frame traps are still safe and c. mk and close fierce are the best two. The only one that is never airtight is CH, and it only is a frame trap if yuo do your jump in as late as humanly possible.

BUt we basically agree. I think you shuold know though that those two moves CAN be airtight after jump ins and are BETTER frame traps than c. jab, and are more safe than persing c. jab 3 times to get what you want.

You guys are making good points such as:

  1. cl fierce and cr mk are clearly better after a jumpin IF you can pull it off. Doing a deep fierce attack makes it 100% safe according to his tests which I believe to be accurate.

  2. Off of an early jump might make the other two unsafe where cr lp would be safe. But if you do an early jump too close where cr mk would not be completely safe to space yourself and you do cr lp, you are still not necessarily safe because that range is not good to be in against many opponents. So trying to space yourselves out using more cr lp may be unsafe.

However I do not agree that you shouldn’t be using early jumpins to combo off of. At far ranges early jumpin combos can be extremely effective since it may be hard to counter an early jumpin with a proper AA move that doesn’t have invincibility especially if you mix up the ranges at which you are attacking vertically and horizontally. And if you get a hit you can combo with cr lp even if you are far up.

I think I clearly demonstrated this point rather well in my matches with you, and I think you demonstrated your points rather well as well.

@laxlight I assure you that we follow the principles of Vega’s jump ins rather well. However I think you should try out the cl fierce and cr mk in matches how Jozhear was just to see his point better.

^ one of my concerns about jumping in for early jump in combos is unless you have meter, you’re not really comboing into anything. Most crouchers can’t get hit by ST, and when I think early jump ins, I think moves that I want to use to beat c. fierce’s. Guile is an exception, but others like Sakura and Ryu don’t get hit when they’re crouching by ST combos. You can always roundhouse for decent damage, but otherwise, combo options are somewhat limited. Not saying you shouldn’t combo, just that it’s not very desirable and you would almost be better off reseting them so you can do poke pressure; if you don’t have meter.

Ah yes you did say when you have meter. I only use the Ex FBA combo off a jump in true. I always tend to have meter since I only use EX for EX FBA.

btw im planning on coming to america just to play ssf4 with ya’ll.

Serious Vega discussion in here. Kind of getting lost with my shortcomings of the SF vernacular.

Can someone explain what a blockstring is exactly? Frame trap too.

One more thing, what’s the point of multiple lp.'s or lk.'s in a combo? Dosen’t it decrease damage with the damage scale? And is riskier on top of that.
Thanks guys, will go over this stuff again after this is cleared up,