Top 5 Controversial Design Guidelines for Ver.2012

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
141

Yang isn’t Yun. I agree with that! But he is still part of the top 3, imo. Many tier lists put him in the top 3. Sometimes he is with the S tier, sometimes he is in the A tier. I think this is because people undervalue him. Tournament results are important…but Japanese players have been doing great consistently with Yang. Those players just didn’t show up to recent US majors. Hit boxes are still incredibly solid. Frame data is, again, still incredibly good (I think his is actually better than Yun if you look at it from an overall perspective.)

Let’s look at why (I think) Yang is just as great as Yun with a sloppy wall of text:

1.) Damage and positioning
Yun hits more than Yang. That’s how it is. But this is something of a narrow view: while Yun keeps his shit going like a truck, Yang is still doing very solid damage. Lots of players automatically think “cr.LK, cr.LK, cr.LK, Rekkas, shit, shit, shit.” Well, they don’t use Yang very well. cr.LK, cr.LP, cr.MK xx Dragon Kicks gives Yang just as much positioning as Yun gets. In the corner, Rekkas will do more damage and give him just as much options as he’d have midscreen with Dragon Kicks. But on top of this, Yang actually can convert any of his BnBs into incredibly good resets. We’re talking better than Seth level options with 220-500 damage on top of great stun into pressure off of FADC Rekkas. That’s not all though! Yang can use his BnB to convert into his Super - it’s not Genei Jin, but god damn is it still good. 350 damage midscreen into reset 250 into another reset for good damage. 600 damage in the corner. 300+* chip strings*. Oh, and if Yang is down 50%? He can hit confirm with an overhead, a command grab or a low into his Ultra once his Super ends.

2.) Frame advanatage
Yun seems to have better frame advantage at a glance, but Yang (arguably) has better frame data than Yun. For starters, Yang can end just about anything with LP Rekka. This is -2 on block. That’s automatically safe against the majority of the options in the game - free chip. Yang is already put into more good positioning - he can actually do some frame traps after a blocked LP Rekka (hell, he can just delay another Rekka and FADC it.) A grappler can scoop Yang, yes, but Yang has wake up glitch at will which really fucks with his bad match ups. So Yang can take just about anything and make it -2 or +abunch on block. His BnB is a natural frame trap with multiple options - cr.LK, cr.LP, cr.MK xx MP Palm, HP Palm, LK Kicks, MK Kicks, LP Rekka or safe teleport out. That’s a 3f starting option that works for crouch tech. Pretty damn good. All his worthwhile normals have frame advantage on block or are almost always safe. st.LP hits if they’re crouching? You’ve got a 4f start up with great range and +4 on block.

3.) Footsies and defensive options
Yang’s normals are a little worse than Yun. But Yang, as mentioned earlier, can cancel nearly all of his footsie options into his specials. This means Yang is always a constant threat with his command grab - there’s safe frame traps everywhere. Yang is always dealing safe chip - with the 300+ chip strings, Yang can actually turn any footsie into a guaranteed frame trap with 350+ damage and a reset. That’s pretty sick if you ask me.

Some of this is likely wrong and I’ve remembered this is Shoryuken so I’m not changing anyone’s opinion (I actually just stopped bothering half way through 3) because I realized that nobody probably cares.) I do not necessarily think Yang, Yun, or Fei should be nerfed into the ground. But I think people seriously underestimate Yang - he’s scary as hell, and just because he isn’t Yun doesn’t mean he isn’t really damn good.

Speaking of which, I think I’m going to stop learning Sagat and start learning Yang now. I can’t learn three characters so eh.

142

do you understand strategy? characters like viper (new), el fuerte(new), seth(new) have horrible design which removes the ability for players to LOGICALLY predict what their opponent (playing either of those characters) will do. not saying el fuerte is overpowered like viper. i’m saying that those two new additions have broken strategy that makes reading players more of a guessing game. but for an overpowered fei long, latiff would’ve cruised to first place at evo. anyone with 1/2 a brain will admit that the game is determined more by matchups than what’s in-between your ears. yes, you must practice, but it’s the characters, not the players playing them. hence, daigo getting confused against viper and seth. go to daigo vs latiff and go to 5:12. daigo is just jumping up and down at fullscreen trying to find a way in vs seismo feints. that’s the power of ground pound specials. ever play vs mk2 jax doing mgp? multiple ground pound characters destroy the flow of the game. and with viper and mk9 jax, now the devs added feinting to the mix. absurd. now you can’t even count in your head and say “well, i know it takes xnumber of seconds before groundpound is over”.

143

I’m still LOL at people that say the answer to 50/50 is to “just block better”. If blocking better is the answer then its not 50/50.

And btw both Latif and Wolfkrone admit its 50/50.

And Hakan just needs minor tweaks. If ppl think he was not represented at EVO simply because good players do not like red, then what can u do, other than be thankful those people don’t work for Capcom.

144

Akuma is more bullshit than either of those characters, why you forget to mention him or Ibuki? Because they are old characters?

Just say it: These characters aren’t SF2 enough and I hate having to approach characters that aren’t from old games differently.

145

“Hakan and Hawk are zoning characters”. That’s where I stopped reading.

146

Fuudo won because he kept his cool, connected with everything, minimized mistakes and played his character to it’s maximum given human constraints. He was not streaky or flashy. He just played his game and let people beat themselves. That’s why he won. Had he not won your sentence would be about Viper or Yun plain and simple. Your post is pretty much, “the top finishers characters shouldn’t be top anymore, nerf them”.

And no, Daigo hadn’t played anybody like Poongko and Latif. I doubt few would argue that there are few others in the world that play those characters better than them and neither live in Japan where Daigo mostly plays. There is a difference between playing against a player and a character. That’s something you should learn to distinguish between.

147

Oh ya, i do meant horizontal ball. That move too safe to be exploit imo. letting blanka to control space full and 3/4 screen. same goes to honda’s headbutt.

148

i have tbh, i feel that this paragraph is wrong in many levels
yes many of the new games have more subsystems, and in some of this games the chars have more tools, yet you can always see how every char has different roles and work based on different archetypes
Potemkin has more tools than zanguief and but he still has the same problems when it face a char that can play a solid zoning game or a good run away game
Sol has a strong rushdown game, but a rather poor zoning game compared to dizzy for example
having strong tools and/or having acces to a good amount of subsystems is in no way something negative, of course this depends a lot of the context of the game
sf is a game known for having a cast with limited amount of tools but theorically those tools are there to cover their designed weakness, the problem that is that sometimes in their attempt of keeping the chars in this context the chars could end with the tools that they need to cover them, this doesnt necesarily means more specials, but a better set of propierties on the current normals/sp

btw the subsystems are usually present on the games as a tools to “balance” the chars based on how strong the tools they have. for example it doent make sense to have a push block on game like sf because the mixup and pressure game is limmited compared to say mvc2, they are present as part of the context of how the play is designed and how strong the tools on the game are

149

Lol.
Your assessment of Viper is grossly exaggerated. There is no “scourge” of vipers. The only players placing high with her are the same people who have been playing her since vanilla. Associating her with any kind of tier-whoring is preposterous. Anyone who’s any good with her can attest to losing countless matches before reaching a stable win/lose ratio.

150

you do understand that they already nerfed that move, and that it was never safe on block vs. half of the cast, and isn’t safe on hit vs. 1/3 correct? And that it also has a terrible hitbox?

151

Oh hush. I know it reads weird but that’s because it’s a different thought process for that classification of character. You could say “grappler” but that’s not really true I feel. They have throws yes, but rely on them like Gief and you’re getting half the result. They seem to rely on countering attacks and capitalizing on encrouched space. To do so requires a lot of time and effort and … space.

So … zoning. Maybe it’s not the classical definition but it’s fine.

152

That’s true with every character. Everybody loses to win. But she’s getting some nerfs in 2012 and they all make sense to me.

153

I guess a better way of phrasing my original post would be - Subsystems often end up dominating the game, and removing character individuality. This is kind of a gross overstatement though, so let me explain.

Let’s say we have Chun vs Balrog, SF4. Last round, very late into the round, both characters have full meter. Balrog has a slight life lead. Here, he can sit on DB and force Chun to make something happen. This is a good play for him, as his defensive options in this position are pretty good, and if Chun has to walk forward she loses access to her 1 frame super. Chun does have options for attack* but they’re all pretty big gambles, and she’s going to have to sacrifice either charge or life to put them in play.

*Chun’s options

[details=Spoiler]It’s not relevant to the point of the post, but for those wondering what Chun can do here…

– Walk forward slowly, try to close distance. She can throw random pokes as she goes, maybe hopefully bait out an EX Dash Punch she can try to react to. The closer she gets the harder it will be to react to a normal Dash Punch though.

– Jump at a position where Balrog’s best anti-air becomes C.FP instead of Headbutt. Chun will take the damage but if she starts charging after she jumps, she can land relatively close to Rog with her charge.

– Chun’s J.MK has ridiculous horizontal range and can combo into sweep if she hits it late enough. If Chun jumps at max J.MK range, Rog’s only good AA answer will be Headbutt, which will whiff if Chun does nothing. At the very least, she can force Balrog to stand on the possibility that she’ll do the J.MK, which can take away his down charge.[/details]

Now, let’s throw in some subsystems. Let’s say we put parry in the game. Now Chun can just jump at Rog. For Rog, doing an AA isn’t the easy choice anymore, as if Chun parries it leaves Rog wide open for Chun to land and unload her meter in his face. Chun can buffer parry into a late hitting attack and pretty much take away his AA options here. Of course Rog has parry too, so he can always parry her jump-in and then make her pay. Or just let her land and then do something from there. Either way, Chun can basically just jump at him and say “Here I am - now you decide what you want to do about this situation.” The same applies for just defend, or even if there is a custom combo system in the game - invincible activation through the AA, land and punish hard. Chun’s original options for dealing with this situation are still there, but she doesn’t really need to worry about them since the game has given her an option she can use that actually has a better risk/reward ratio.

Fans of these kinds of subsystems will often counter argue that it’s the same situation - Chun has to take a risk and Balrog has to decide what he’s going to do about it. Or, “you thought I was going to do this, but I did that instead and haha, gotcha!” That is true, but when subsystems are utilized then it takes away a bit of the character-specific nature of the game. A great example of this is none other than the infamous Daigo parry. With absolutely no life left to survive any sort of chip, Chun does super at Ken. Ken parries every hit, avoiding certain death, and hits Chun with a big super combo for the win. But does it matter which character Daigo was using? Not at all - Daigo could have used Hugo or Twelve or Q and done the same thing. As long as the character had a combo that could deal out enough damage, the outcome would be the same no matter who Daigo was using. Now let’s say we have the same situation in SF4. Ken has no life left, Chun does U1 to try and chip him out. How does Ken live here? EX Shoryuken and ultra will actually counter Chun’s ultra here - EX Shoryuken keeps Ken alive while ultra might win him the match. But let’s change the character - what if it’s Chun vs Zangief? With no subsystem to save him, and his own moves not being able to stop or avoid the ultra, Gief is just going to die here. It might not be fair for Gief, but it lets characters have more individuality here.

I also said that the subsystem dominates the game. Any 3S fan will quickly argue that 3S isn’t about parrying everything, and trying to do so is actually a fast way to get killed. Of course. But it’s not about parrying everything, so much as that you have to respect that the system is there. Going back to the Chun/Rog fight, Chun might not try to parry Rog’s AA, but Rog has to respect that its an option and really think about whether or not he wants to do that AA. The clearest example though would be A3 - the game was dominated by V-ISM, and the best characters in the game were the ones who took advantage of V-ISM the best. In some ways, even original SF4 was an example of this - everyone had FA cancels and ultras, but the best characters in the game were the ones who took the best advantage of it (Sagat, Ryu).

In the end, it just comes down to preference. I don’t think that games with subsystems require any more or less skill than those without. It’s just a different type of play style. I like games without - if Rog with a life lead sits on his full meters, I like that how I deal with this with Chun will be different than how I deal with it using Ryu, Guile, or Bison. And maybe there will be some characters where no matter what I think of, I’m more or less SOL. But that’s just a part of the game that I appreciate.

154

I’m just gonna paraphrase s-kill and say that characters shouldn’t too strong/weak so as to win/lose in boring ways. I think that’s a good way of determining character strength.

155

while i agree that a poor designed mechanic can hurt how the game works, you seem to forget that also a good designed mechanic can add a lot of depth on how the game could be played
there are a lot of games that have parry mechanics that keep the game in a good balance (going by your example using that specific mechanic)
another thing is that you are expecting that 2 already established chars should keep the same options when the context has changed, obviously the way that the match works would change if their current tools mantain the same attributes from a game that doesnt have parries, if the context changes IMO you need to also reinterpret the chars (if they are already established) to work around this new context yet still keeping them faithful to the core concept of what defines them, and if the char is new you need to desing his/her with the parries in mind

156

Definitely. I like the Focus Attack system in IV, I think it’s an interesting system with a fair bit of risk/reward and adds to the overall game. As I said before, in original IV there was a bit of the characters who took the best advantage of it dominating the game, but with the adjustments made in Super I think things actually evened out fairly well. Even in AE, the top characters all use FA and FA cancels in various ways, from heavily to casually and even not at all.

In a game with a mechanic like parry you would absolutely want to design the characters taking that in mind. My example was just a basic theoretical to show how such a subsystem can impact the game. If Balrog were in 3S, I imagine the same scenario would be quite different (hello Chun c.mk!) because Balrog would play differently than he would in IV. I do feel like the basic idea would remain - whatever character specific options Chun might have here, jumping with the threat of parrying the AA would still be the better option. But that’s all theory fighter.

I don’t think subsystems are bad. I just felt that in the games 10 years ago, as fighting games had flooded the market and devs needed to bring something new to the table, throwing in a bunch of subsystems wasn’t always a good thing. Can a subsystem bring a lot to the table and deepen the gameplay? Sure. Does a game need a universal defensive/offensive/movement option, or 3 to 6 selectable “grooves” to make it good? Not necessarily.

157

IMO, Capcom’s design philosophy with SF4 is just bad in general.

They give some characters the tools to deal with everything, with no drawbacks at all. Others get forced into a very specific playstyle, the reward is very low for pulling it off and you get absolutely trashed if you let a mistake fall through.

I’m going to use Balrog and Vega as examples. They aren’t the only characters with issues, but I feel that the highlight the problems with SF4 very well.

Vega is in a sad state in SF4. You can basically play perfect the entire match, only to get knocked down once. Then, you get cross-upped and mix-upped to death, the ONLY thing you can do is block. Because Vega has no invincible move OR 3-framer, he basically gets frame-trapped to death. It’s so easy to get in on Vega and end the game right there, while he genuinely has to work his ass off. What makes it more retarded is that Capcom decided (for some random reason) that his medium pokes were doing too much damage and nerfed it from 70 to 60 damage. Keep in mind that Vega was not known for doing lots of damage, and that he was only low-mid tier in SSF4. Vega has some good pokes, but these don’t make up for his horrid disadvantages.

Then you get characters like Balrog. Balrog is high-tier in SF4 for many reasons: unbeatable jump-ins, ridiculous frame advantages, great hitboxes, and guaranteed Ultra 1 from landing any jab. Balrog also has useful EX-moves, they all have armor and eat pokes for breakfast. Most of his specials are very, very safe on block with the exception of headbutt.

This is why SF4 isn’t popular anymore – the game just isn’t fun. A large portion of the cast can’t do anything if Balrog decides to DB all game. You can’t jump, if you move forward you risk eating a dash punch that’s too fast to react to. This wouldn’t be a problem if Capcom didn’t give specific characters tools to deal with every situtation. With Bison, you know that he has a weak wakeup game and no AA. With Zangief, you know that he has trouble getting in since he has slow movespeed and no projectiles.

But what the hell is Balrog’s weakness? What’s Ryu’s weakness? Where’s Yun/Yang/Fei’s weakness? I know you can safe-jump Rog on wake-up, but is that really a weakness you can consistently use to your advantage? It’s hard knocking down Rog, and he’s not totally free on wakeup. Yun/Yang do have lower stamina, but it’s incredibly difficult to get a hit or two in with that much pressure. Their risk/reward ratios are very, very favourable and -100 stamina won’t balance this out.

I don’t know if Capcom even tests their own game thoroughly. In Vanilla SF4, there was basically no reason to pick Ken over Ryu since Ryu did everything better with more damage, speed, and frame advantage.

158

Lol, of all the things to complain about, I can’t believed you picked Boxer. He does like no damage in AE. He can be meatied for free by some characters. Very little mixup potential outside of overhead, which can be blocked on reaction. He’s got a wacky hitbox that make it very easy to land ambiguous x-ups/unblockables. And what unbeatable jump ins are you talking about?

TBH, it just sounds like you don’t like the matchup very much. Boxer is an annoying character, but he’s not a good example of a character with no drawbacks.

159

You had some interesting points but this right here is just a fallacy, unless you are discussing Vanilla SF4 in which case the reason it isn’t popular anymore is because of Super and AE not because of balance issue. Many people feel Alpha 2 was more balanced than Alpha 3, but A3 is far more popular of a game because it had more stuff and it was just a continuation of A2 rather than a whole new game.

If the EVO viewership, and player numbers, are any indication. SF4 is the most popular fighting game currently. More people tuned in to watch SF4 than did MvC3 (which had a very strong showing in terms of viewers.)

160

I don’t mean to subject here … butttttt …

You can’t say a character is designed with sub-systems in mind because those are characters with design crutches that don’t transfer to other games well. Designing a character around sub-systems creates characters like Fuerte and Fei. Fuerte needs a high damage Ultra to compete because he’s poorly designed overwise and Fei had to have his focus sped up so his game could be viable. And, yes, Fei was in other games but he’s always been low-tier until IV’s focus helped him out.

And don’t even get me started about designing a character differently because of a subsystem like parry. Parry is one of the most ill-conceived sub-systems in fighting history. You really think they developed the characters with the parry system in mind? At all? Then why is 2/3 of the cast non-viable? If they set out to design characters with the sub-system in mind they failed, failed, failed.

All they did with the parry system in mind is add EX attacks to everyone in Giants Attack but, I’m sorry, that’s not really “designing characters around a subsystem” that’s adding more systems to fix your previous system. There isn’t a way to make a character with a system like parry in mind because in essence it degrades any attack. How can you balance against that? It’s nonsensical. I believe even focus was meant to be a universal system but they found it had to be changed in speed or duration for each character to better balance the game. And that’s because having such “gimmicks” require their own balance.

I’d greatly prefer a fighter with heavy damage and no meters, supers, ultra’s, focus, parry or other gimmicks. Yes, I have hyper fighting but I’d like a NEW game like that.