I think its good as long as you put the “Not possible” Thing if you are using it for a video.
Personally, I can go either way on No Dizzy. Honestly, it’s pretty easy to tell when No Dizzy is being used(I.E., my 200% combos. Duh.), and, it doesn’t make “that” big a difference. IMO, Combo Videos are meant to show what is possible, and there isn’t much more to show with Dizzies.
If they’re being used for unique/useful purposes(I.E., Gem Fighter combos with Combo -> Dizzy -> Ball setup, or a 12 hit XvsSF Ryu Dizzy), then great. If they’re not, the video is generally better without them. Less empty space. It’s not like it’s “not possible, so don’t bother trying”. It’s like “It’s possible, but they’ll die first. So oh well, you still win.”
P.S.: I worked with Lezard on SnH2, and I’ve seen what he’s done in MSH… And I have to say, I don’t think that guile combo is beyond his grasp. It’s not like the guy is an execution wonder with no brain matter… He’s got skills. I make no guarantees, but I’ve seen the magic.
P.P.S.: To second James, Performing quality combos right for recording is a “huge” pain in the ass, especially considering that it’s not just a Training Mode thing. There’s the blank time, the recording devices, and for direct arcade ports, there’s Health/Time. So, where possible, at least give respect for the people who ‘do’ go through the shit to bring people the good stuff.
100% totally okay. 'Cause the dizzy doesn’t indicate anything, and for XvSF, you can start a combo after they are dizzy and they’ll never fall dizzy again… but they usually die before you can finish it. So it is possible in the actual context of the game, and if we had a Training Mode, you’d see it all day: dizzy the guy, then do the Combo. Why bother? Skip the dizzy part and just turn off dizzies. I think that SHOULD be an option in ALL Training Modes, frankly. I can’t tell you how many times I’m fucking around, trying to land a Combo, only to finally do it but have them fall dizzy at the 2nd to last hit. Grrrrrrrrr…
- James
Regarding those videos where you guys collaborated, we the general public just have no way of knowing who did which combo. We can’t even guess how well you guys know each other or whether you come up with combos individually or together.
I gotta admit that Lezard’s Final Chapter video was the most suspect of the bunch, so maybe he was the only one using emu shortcuts. It’s even possible that he started out doing everything the old-fashioned way and really only started using emu shortcuts later on.
I’m not making all sorts of detailed, complicated accuasations here. All i’m saying is that there are things in some combo vids involving Lezard that i just can’t believe were done by hand with no emu help.
I’m down with almost any slight alteration or emu tools / programmable controllers as long as:
- any game engine changes and/or anything beyond human capability are explicitly written in the video as a disclaimer
- the video author makes it worthwhile by doing something creative with it, whether it’s a technical thing or whether it’s used for nice video edits / music synching, or whatever
Just own up to your tools/cheats/shortcuts and prove that your video is still worth watching. Otherwise it’s lying to us and hiding shit from us, and those are the only things that bugs me.
If it were possible, I 100% beleive Lezard could do it.
I think the reason people are skeptical is because I just don’t think the combo is possible AT ALL within the rules of the game. I’ll try it myself, but a Sonic Boom is really tough to combo with a Razor Kick with nothing between even without walking forward. I’ve NEVER SEEN Crouch Strong into Sonic Boom into Razor Kick. EVER. But to be able to do it and walk forward in between is really… tough to believe. I don’t think there is enough time to charge for it. I have to honestly say, if he did do that Combo on an arcade 100% accurate version, he is the best Combo Performer on the planet, by far… no contest. I’m not trying to be a dick or “call him out” or claim he can’t do it, but I’m just stating why most of us have trouble believing it.
- James
Wowsers, i can’t believe NKI, James Chen, and Prozac are all posting in my thread!
I totally watch you guys’ videos!!
I just think it’s really awesome that so many video makers whom i respect are having a discussion. The best goal i had back when i was still working on VidOp was to create a forum for an open dialogue like this. That plan never worked out for 987928734234 reasons, but it’s just cool to see something like that happening for no particular reason.
Too bad there aren’t any new Capcom games to experiment with. Hey, you guys wanna go buy a bunch of SOTA Street Fighter action figures and make our own combo counter out of construction paper? My buddy has a handheld camera we could borrow to make some kickass custom combos.
Go ahead and PM him, I don’t think it’s unfair to pose the question… I’m certainly not saying I stood over his shoulder when he did the combo, but I know the way EMU Tricks work, and I know the timetable he did some of his best SnH2 work on, and it doesn’t mesh… If he doesn’t have an SRK account, he’s got a ComboVideos one.
I’ll admit, I hardly know ST as well as you guys.
As for who did what in SnH2, some combos say who did it in the corner in the actual vid… And I “think” there is a transcript out somewhere… But I could be wrong.
Oh yeah, I already did, right after the video was released. He said he didn’t use anything, that he just tried them a lot, sacrificing much much much sleep (like I’m sure all of us have before). Which is why I still stand that I will believe his word.
I’m only trying to explain why people are so skeptical.
- James
Nothing to be done about skepticism. People still believe my SnH1 Gambit combo is impossible. Then I put out SnH2. Whatcha gonna do.
Back on track though… If anybody wants to know exactly how to use EMU Frame Advance methods to make footage, I’ll go through the steps… So long as the video has that disclosure…
What I “am” curious about is how programmable joysticks work, exactly…
After watching that Guile combo, I also sent a PM to Lezard asking if he used any cheats, and he said that he didn’t. As I said before, I give huge ups to Lezard, and I don’t want to say he’s lying…I just hella don’t see how that combo is possible.
There’s actually a pretty easy way to test it: just count the number of frames you have to execute a Flash Kick after releasing your charge. If that number is less than [recovery frames of a Sonic Boom + a couple frames for walking], then we know the combo is not possible.
I guess I’ll test it when I get home.
We should get Magnetro up in here. I’m interested myself.
In CFJ, that number is around 10 frames for special moves. It’s probably different for super moves.
But he could have been charging D during the recovery period of the Sonic Boom, and only started walking as soon as he was free to move. I don’t think he’s using a “free charge” cheat or any kind of cheat. I just think that the charge time execution is humanly impossible. It’s just hard for me to believe that you could do that many charge moves in succession. Walking forward isn’t illegal, but it does shorten his charge window a lot.
Even if you had exact frame data for Sonic Booms, it wouldn’t really help you because that last Sonic Boom travels quite a distance before connecting. In order to have conclusive proof that the combo is humanly impossible, you would have to do the combo using frame advance and count the number of frames of leeway. If it turns out that you have to do every motion with one or two frame accuracy, then i would say he used some kind of emulator tool in recording. And considering that even TZW hasn’t done a combo like that, i think it’s entirely possible that the window is that small.
Just to make it clear, i’m not out to discredit Lezard. My primary goal is to find out how exactly he did it, especially if he did use emulator tools.
Tool assisted combo videos has existed for over 5 years now. The thing is, most of the people who actually use programs to do combos never admit that they use them. I’m not sure about the Capcom scene, but a whole load of people cheat for SNK combo videos. That’s pretty much why most legit combo makers quit doing vids because the cheaters never admit to cheating, therefore most viewers will actually think they’re godlike, where actual experts will know that they cheated, because it’s just impossible to do by a human. Impossible as in the best combo makers in the world will fail at around 5% of the combo even if their lives depended on it.
I’m not gonna point fingers around but all I will say is MOST of the chinese KOF sites cheat which is really a sad thing to the KOF combo community.
Ah! Oh shit, long time no see! Hey do you know what matanzas Email is? I used to have him on my msn. Do you still go on direct connect?
If there’s one thing I’ve learned as a ridiculous combo maker, it’s that, as long as the rules aren’t altered, impossible is just a matter of perserverance.
Let’s say the guile combo has, oh, 5 consecutive linchpins that require 1 to 2 frame accuracy… On your first shot, it’d be impossible, of course. But over time, if you’ve got the right mindset(Obsessive-compulsive, to an extent), it becomes of matter of memory and doing it again, and again, and again, until, finally, it works. Not because you got lucky, per se… But because the timing was tried again and again until it’s ingrained in your brain.
At least… That’s how it was for me… That’s also how I can do some of the more difficult things in matches. It’s not always luck… Sometimes it’s just pure, fine tuned memory.
If the combo is physically impossible, of course, than there’s nothing more to be said…
I heard joo uses Programmable sticks for his harder combos… Can anyone confirm/deny this?
I always wondered how the KoF community managed to release those giant 20-minute videos every week or two. Since i don’t know much about the KoF series, i figured it was either because their combos were modest (requiring mediocre execution) or because they were using some shortcuts to get that kind of turnout rate.
I can’t point out a specific thread for you or anything, but i remember when joo’s videos were first released, it sparked a whole discussion about the topic of programmable controllers and it was made pretty clear that they do use them.
Pretty much every famous Japanese combo maker uses programmable controllers - Meikyo, Sai-Rec, kysg, RX, tosaka, zerokoubou, Skill Smith, and a lot of others. Even TZW used some programmable features (at the very least he used a customized rapid fire controller which was a big deal back 10 years ago).
I don’t think he does any easy combos. And yes, it’s no secret, he uses a programmable pad for his combos. Now here’s a question for you all: Do you have any idea on how to program a combo? 
Doing a Sonic Boom from a distance, then ducking, then comboing a Flash Kick or super…I can buy that, but here’s the reason I have a hard time believing Lezard’s combo works. If you watch the vid closely, you can clearly see that he has his Flash Kick charged before Guile recovers from the Sonic Boom (because he never ducks after the Sonic Boom).
Using the delayed Sonic Boom method (charge D/B, tap toward, start charging D/B again, tap punch), you have a maximum of 38 frames to charge a Flash Kick before Guile recovers from the Sonic Boom. However, the Flash Kick requires charging for 48 frames.
The only thing I can think of is if the slow-down from the previous Sonic Boom allows for those extra 10 frames…? I dunno. Don’t have time to test it tonight. :sad:
NKI: Where do you get 38 frames? That’s weird that it takes 48 frames to charge a Flash Kick instead of 60. It’s also weird that the 48 frames is 4/5ths of the expected 60 frames. If you’re playing on default speed, maybe there’s a frameskip going on. That happens in CvS2 and CFJ. You only get every frame shown if you’re playing on Speed 1. If you play on Speed 3 (default), you get four frames shown and then one skipped.
So did you get 38 frames from testing or from some kinda book? Cuz if you got it from a book, you might have to apply the frameskip modifier. I’m assuming you tested it out though. The more important question is how many extra charge frames does the delayed Sonic Boom method provide? In CvS2 and CFJ, you normally get zero extra frames because inputting the Sonic Boom command (or any special attack command for that matter) resets charge time. Like if you charge DB and do Blanka’s electricty, charge resets as soon as you complete the necessary mashing input. Then you have to recharge from that point even though you never really used your charge. I’m just not sure how things work in ST - whether or not you can get extra charge frames using the delayed method.
But now that you mention it, that whole Sonic Boom to walking forward transition is waaaaay too seamless. I still think he’s recharging inbetween the Sonic Boom and the Flash Kick, but the fact that he doesn’t even start to duck after the Sonic Boom makes it seem that much more suspicious.
While we’re on the subject of discussing the Combos in that video, I would like to talk about two other ST Combos: the Guile Combo at 5:20 and the Balrog Combo at 5:45.
The Guile Combo… is it possible to retain charge for the Super after throwing a Sonic Boom? I know there are lots of crazy “Supers Don’t Lose Their Charge” stuff going on in this game, and I was wondering if this was one of them. Have you ever seen a Sonic Boom into immediate Super before, NKI? Again, I’ll have to take some time to go home and try it out myself.
And the Balrog Combo, he does two charges in a row, followed by Jumping Fierce into Charge into Super. Again, stuff that I would expect in a video with programmable sticks, but not on something done by hand. Lezard did say to me, however, that the Balrog double charge to get Zangief dizzy was, in his word, “a bug”, that after the first move he did the second one without charging and it came out of nowhere, and he can’t explain it (though in my experience, when things like that happen, I’ll have absolutely no composure to finish off the even MORE difficult second combo in that clip).
So I was curious as to what the others’ opinions were on those two Combos. Maybe it has been done before, but I haven’t seen it.
Again, the skepticism comes from the fact that we’ve seen everything that can be done in ST. And when something that crazy new happens, you get shocked. And it’s not something that obscure either… linking Sonic Boom into Razor Kick has been a dream of Guile Combo Video makers for their whole lives, and none have ever done it with a normal version of the game, let alone walk forward and do it.
- James
link to combo vids? =x