Tiers for ggx2 and #R

Classic Fighting Games Other Games
21

People need to give up this debate for a good while unless Arcadia actually decides to publish a new tier list for #R. Beyond the big 4 in XX there is no real definate answer to give to the tier question. Even in #R it’s still up for grabs, we have a good idea about the top but it’s still near impossible to pick out a list that could be stone cold perfect.

It doesn’t matter to begin with, #R especially is so well balanced that you can play who you want and win. The only sort of tier basis we have right now are the booklets they passed out at SBO and for all we know those could change next week.

22

Check out my post. :slight_smile:

23

Arcadia tiers tend to be hit-and-miss. I dunno why people get on them so often (I used to do the same before I knew better).

I don’t really care, though. I care more about matchups than tiers.

24

yay! im gonna make a tier list for #r that’s crap! (aka: my opinion)

top-
slayer
eddie
venom
millia

upper-
robo-ky
jam
axl
sol

mid-
bridget
faust
ino
potemkin
johnny

lower-
baiken
chipp
ky
dizzy

bottom-
testament
may
zappa
anji(haha cary!)

…yup :smiley:

25

Because its a major Japanese publication with an established reputation and the masses just want a booming voice from the heavens to hand down a verdict so they know which character to pick for the easiest win.

Tiers ultimately are worthless. The only thing they do is to say that on average, these characters are better than these other characters. It does nothing of use. It doesn’t tell you why a certain character is better than a certain other character, so no beneficial arguments spring from it. All you have are a bunch of bored people bitching about I can’t believe you placed Johnny in low tier, he should be in mid without any actual discussion going into WHY he should be in either.

Yes, I am bitter :mad:

26

Assassin Guild = Win :cool:

27

RedBeard: There are a few of Johnny’s match-ups I disagree with you on. The one that stands out is Dizzy vs. Johnny. I don’t see how this can be any worse than even for Dizzy.

First, Dizzy’s arsenal of crap keeps Johnny out well. With the laser fish’s beams lasting longer and having a wider range helps Dizzy now. The 236S is good against Johnny because that takes away two of his perferred means of getting in (jump HS in any form and 6K). Still, well spaced Johnny can mist finer his way around the crap, it’s just more difficult to be on that side of things. Though there is always the lingering bubble threat :slight_smile:

Second, Dizzy can stuff Johnny’s air game pretty well. Dizzy’s far-S shuts down IAD attemtps. Johnny’s two weapons to counter this are jumping in with HS or the Divine Blade. Dizzy can’t do anything about Divine Blade if it is FRC’ed. Just try not to fry yourself and leave it at that. But if Johnny misses an FRC… :smiley: Now Johnny’s jumping HS is the truth. The thing is to do a jump in on Dizzy leads to troubles. Dizzy can run under and 2S and there’s nothing Johnny can can only anticpate and fry her with Divine Blade, or just not attack :stuck_out_tongue: Also Dizzy’s air throw range is in the 2nd best class (Potemkin is #1, I-no, May and Dizzy are #2, everyone else is #3) making air throwing a valid anti-air option. Of cousre, using air throws to beat jump ins is a favorite strat of mine with every character :smiley:

Dizzy’s ground pokes are nothing to scoff at. 5K beats a lot of crap is has no business beating. 2S has no chance against Dizzy. J’s HS’s will win if they make it out. farS is on par with the kick (first one out wins, Johnny wins ties). Thing is, Dizzy’s other pokes such as 2K and 2D (with it’s FRC-able) are good against far-S from close (2k) or far (2d). 2HS is Johnny’s ace in the hole. Dizzy really can’t stop this. Dizzy can punish a whiffed 2HS like no one’s business, but she won’t out prioritize this.

Then there is damage. I will say that Dizzy does more damage now. With Mist Finer’s damage tonedown, and other damage adjustments done to Johnny, Dizzy at worst is on par with damage. Ice Spike can still be comboed after an FRC (IAD P-S-H or P-S-D (1hit)). If Dizzy gets enough tension to FRC 2HS’s or sweeps, the fun starts.

Alas, Johnny has options. If he guesses right on Dizzy and gets in close, Dizzy is in a world of guard-stun. Not having a reversal that doesn’t require joystick gymnastics sucks for Dizzy. Also Johnny usually wins air-to-air battles with his j.S. Although Dizzy has better tools than a lot of characters for fighting Johnny air-to-air: her own j.S has almost as good range, her j.k is really quick up close, her j.H rewards her with huge damage on counter hit…if she reaches the ground in time, and there’s her air throw which becomes great damage once in the corner (combo into Ice Spike or 2P-2H FRC into air combo).

Johnny also can disrupt Dizzy’s pressure with his super. This is better than most characters’ reversals, so that is something Dizzy has to consider during pressure. Johnny’s 6P is good against Dizzy’s 5K, which helps a lot against her. Also 6P makes it hard for Dizzy to do anything air-to-ground on Johnny. Johnny does win the stamina and stun battles. Still, I don’t see how Johnny makes this into a 6-4 match his way.

Personally I’m all for Dizzy being in the top 8. The top 5 (E, Slayer, Robo, Jam, and Axl) are all better. Bridget is better. Sol and Millia may be as well. That’s about it. Dizzy lost her one-dimensionality from GGXX and is now really buff overall.

28

damn skippy! :smiley:

29

I agree with most of what you said, except that Dizzy does more damage, which I’m 95% sure she doesn’t. 5H, MFL2, 6K, j.S dj. j.K j.S j.D Ensenga does 194 on 1.00 defense, and that’s for 0 tension. I don’t think Dizzy can match that. 5H, MFL2, dash 5K, 5H, DB FRC, j.S j.D, Ensenga does 232. Add on Jump Install and it’s 247. 5H, MFL2 RC, Dash 6H, j.S dj j.S Ensenga does 233. His MFL2 combos do anywhere from 180-280 depending on what you start with, how close you are, if you have a CH, and how much tension you use.

His basic throw combos do 78(PO)-120(CH), and basic kicks do 105(PO)-173(CH). Dizzy beats him by about…10-15 points on throw depending on who it is, but I’m just about positive that she can’t wrack up 230-250 damage for 25% tension.

I suppose the match is 5-5, I just can’t recall too many matches where I’ve seen Johnny lose to Dizzy. She’s one of the easiest, if not THE easiest to combo, it’s not THAT hard to get around her plethora of crap, and I think once he gets a knockdown or has her on defense she’s in a lot more trouble than he is when he’s getting rushed by her. I don’t think this is official or anything, it’s just my opinion. Even if it’s not 6-4, I think J has the edge on her personally.

And no, I didn’t get all of the matchups right, but I wrote the list in like 1 minute heh. But it’s hard to give matchup rankings in whole points, since some characters are definitely better against a character than someone else, but giving them a 3-7 would be extreme. It’d be much easier to rate on a .1 .2 .3 etc scale than whole numbers. The only ones I’d really change are Axl having a 6-4 against Johnny, and possibly being even with I-No. But my main point was that, in my opinion, Johnny is definitely above May, Ky, I-No, Testament, Anji, and Dizzy in ranking, and it’s mostly because Johnny isn’t countered by any specific character, and no matter who he’s against he has a pretty good chance of holding his own. Robo-Ky is just annoying because he’s simply a better character, not going to go into all of it, and his high defense and weight creates annoying problems for Johnny. And his excessive turtling and all of his other crap etc. Bridget isn’t too bad unless she knocks Johnny down, then it’s really hard for him to do anything, especially if it’s in the corner…but it’s not TOO bad before then, but still in her favor. Just have to learn what pokes to use against her, but it doesn’t help that his 6P…which was a major tool in thwarting her in XX, is slowed down. You can still use it but it’s harder to do.

30

Faust is better. Not saying diz is top 9, but i know faust is better.

31

Bastard! You will die this weekend!!!:cool: :evil:

32

sure I will, mr. dead last :cool:

33

Unless you’re me. Then it’s like 9-1, advantage Dizzy. I can’t seem to deal with the standing far slash (it’s like Johnny’s but 100 times better) and the damn FRC sweep. Oh and that other move, what’s it called again? Oh yeah, everything she has. That’s the one. :mad:

And of course, Ice, I won’t forget the unbeatable Triple-False-Roman-Cancelled-Ducking-Hard-Slash-Technique. Too good. :rolleyes:

34

My point exactly i can pick anji and match blows with every top tier person on the game and come out on top cause with top tier players they all use the same strategies ,same setups, same attack strings it gets predictible, a couple of dead angle attacks, a random butterfly here and there, imperfect butter fly traps , a tiger kneed orb , a well thought out mix up game and and my personal favorite bait and counter, even eddie going for his unblocakble setups 6hs, 2d just stopped him in his tracks. Johnnys lack of mobility kills him as his pokes are easily avoided. sol recovery time on most of his whiffed moves makes him easily punishable. Dizzy has to get some sort of range before she can go offensive and bridget only has one good wake up move. There is a flaw in everybodys game plan its just a matter of finding and exploting it.

35

I actually want people to try to get out of a butterfly trap. Then the fun starts.

I can sometimes beat our best players with Anji, Testament and Zappa (about 5:5 ratio) and with May (7:3, unless it’s against Potemkin spamming Hammer Fall, or Faust). And I suck with Sol. Go figure… Last time I checked out our arcade, May was fourth or fifth, and Sol was rock-bottom.

I cannot figure out why Dizzy is ranked low.

36

She only has one good matchup, which is Potemkin.

Everyone else has a couple good matchups (Chipp x Dizzy/Eddie, Pote x Chipp/Slayer/May Anji x Baiken/Chipp etc).

37

Thank god i’m not alone.

But still with dizzy before you can get any good damage strted with her you have to gain some range to throw out a fish and rush un with it or you could build up your opponents guard meter and do her unblokakble super cause it will hurt like hell, but in ther oter hand most of her stuff is easily blocked.

38

Easily blocked = guard meter plus.

I guess matchups depend on players’ skill levels, too. But I forgot about Baiken. How does she lose to May? I’m thinking my Baiken could beat my May. I must be doing something wrong (or right, since my May eats just about anyone except Pot, Faust and maybe Jam and Robo-Ky).

I haven’t played for too long…

39

Who says she loses to May? :stuck_out_tongue:

40

Ok, I’m just going to piss off as many people as I can :lol:

RedBeard: I’ve had a few more days of Dizzy vs. Johnny. I still believe this fight to be somewhere between 5-5 to 6-4 Dizzy. Honestly, I feel it is 5.5-4.5. Johnny definatly has all the game in the world if he gets in on Dizzy. It’s simply a matter of how is he going to do it. FRCing Dviine Blade gives him a great way to get in. 6K can be a good way to get in, but it doesn’t go through as much crap as before. I’ve personally stuffed this with 5K, 2P and 2K. But if Dizzy doesn’t have the time to get those out (like say, after blocking a coin), not much she can do to stop J.

In all honesty, I’d still consider this 6-4 Dizzy, but the stamina, guts, and stun difference helps Johnny. I must admit, you are right, Johnny does indeed do more damage. I knew he did more damage head to head because of the stamina, but I thought in training mode on the same characters Dizzy would win…wrong :stuck_out_tongue: That and Dizzy needs at least 25% tension to get to her really good damage. As for a 4 hitter, it’s hard to top K-HS-2D xx Ice Pick.

Overall I think the combination of Dizzy’s projectile assault combined with her long ranged normals like 5K, 2P, j.S, j.H, 2D and to a lesser more risky extent 2HS give her the slight edge.

BTW, I like appriciate your insight on this.

Destin: if you’re going to post in here, please feel free to chime in :smiley: I’ve only been seriously playing Dizzy for about 2-3 weeks.

Henaki: Uhm, WTF man.

Chipp vs. Dizzy might be ok for Chipp. Chipp vs. Eddie as a counter match? Uhm, no. Chipp loses 1/2 his life if he blocks one string then makes 1 mistake. I hope you don’t bring up Texas Showdown, because that would take away from Kensou’s abilities as a player.

I wouldn’t call Potemkin a counter to May. I might have the best May player on the East Coast as a roommate. Pot doesn’t counter May. Might have an edge, but is not a counter match. Someone like Jam in #R, Slayer in XX (jury is out on #R) counters May. Pot doesn’t straight counter her.

And finally Baiken is the Anji counter, not the other way around. Butterfly mix-ups are even less in Anji’s favor since “countering vs. not countering” is added to the equasion. She can almost neutralize it altogether if she has tension. Then there’s the fact that mats are everywhere and it’s not easy for Anji to advance on her zoning. Aside from a couple of top tier characters, no one beats Anji like Baiken.

PMTONEY9: Your post about all top tier players playing the same is one of the worst things I’ve read on srk in a while. And it is the wrost thing GG related I’ve read since grandabx fanboying XX and pissing off everyone.

All players who use a top tier character are predicatble? And all low tier characters are unpredicatable? I doubt it. Go play some decent out of town comp, you see a lot of stuff.

I like how you include “bait and counter” and “a well thought out mix-up” as Anji tactics, since freaking everyone can do that. Now for the character by character analysis: Anji’s 6H-2D will not stop Eddie’s unblockables at all. Anji cannot auto guard mids and lows simultaneously. He will get hit. Also Anji cannot reversal with a 6HS so I’m not sure why this would ever be an issue. Johnny’s pokes are easy to avoid…that is if you stay at the other side of the screen. When you are close, they are tought to avoid. Problem with that is, unless you are Faust or Axl you don’t get to punish Johnny for whiffing pokes from the other side of the screen (unless Johnny is a complete moron whiffing HS’s or you just plumb mindfuck the Johnny). Sol only has bad recovery time on Ground Viper and Volcanic Viper. His HS’s are pretty bad as well. But with the exception of Ground Viper you always have to fear that Sol will just VV you when you try to punish that poor recovery and mistime it slightly. Dizzy does have a double air dash, so it’s not difficult to get that necessary range from the beginning of a round. Unless you flat out predict Dizzy, she just got her distance, now enjoy getting in on her. That and all Dizzy needs is to be at 5K/5S/j.S range and she’s in good shape. Bridget only has 1 good wake up move…which is better than pretty much everyone’s wake-up move except Sol’s, and that’s debatable. Bridget had the best wake-up game in Guilty Gear until Robo-Ky came into town, but in XX he is the princess of getting up off of the ground.

You are right, there is a flaw in everyone’s game. Problem is that you get characters like Eddie, who in XX literally has ONE flaw (you could say 2 flaws, but both are the result of the same issue) and then you have characters like Anji and Zappa (XX) who have about 8.