Tier discussion

Classic Fighting Games Tatsunoko VS Capcom
101

ok im here, since im a zero mainer i think i should give some opinion on the matter

i have main zero and joe since the game came out, at first i was a bit disapointed on the damage output so i work out my miuxp reset game, them after a few days i realize the buster potencial, i zero low damage output got better, after a few weaks i decide to try something else, so i try to maintein the buster charge at all times after that i realize the i could maintein the charge at all times by change the buttons i use to keep the charge so the next month i keep delivering the tecnique until it become second nature, at this point zero damage output got to 27 billion to 38 billion at full, mid or corner, at that point i got 2 main teams, zero and joe the condor and tekkaman blade and ryu, i have to say zero is better at rushdown and miuxps, but can stand to take a hit, while tekkaman blade could play defensively, and as devilchirst already point it tekkaman blade defensive attack have amazing uses, such as canceling into shamsir and crash intrude, or simply call and assit to go for the relaunch combo blade weakness is the same as zero, rushdowns, yes zero is weak against rushdown, at close range his attack get beaten by fast pokes or assits setups, while zero is able build alot of bar that only if you maintein control of the match otherwise, dont think that happen, tekkaman blade don excel at building bar but al least it inst bad, comparing the 2 characters, i have to say that tekkaman blade is more of a treat than zero.

i have seen those livestream tournaments, an i agree that people dont wait zero enough, yes outplaying long strings and mixups is difficult, but it paids off

102

Did you mean at the end Blade is more of a threat than Zero. Zero does excel in rush down and mix ups but everything else he does not really fit him well, his supers are okay. His charge super seems to be only good in corner and lvl 3 still good. Tekkaman Blade does not really have one amazing aspect but he excels in a little bit of everything like Defense, run away, damage output, rush down and meter building. Now that playing Zero more patiently and realizing more how to counter him I think Blade-Zero match up is probably slightly more in Blades favor being 55-45. Blade vs Ken the Eagle 50-50, Blade vs Yatter-1 55-45. You can’t forget the underdog Saki, Blade vs Saki: 40-60. Saki can out camp Blade all day but once Blade gets in Saki will have trouble but pretty much Saki can control this match up pretty well. If you have any questions about match ups or issues about what I am saying, please let me know.

103

What do you guys think of Casshan? Low tier?

104

casshan, without assist his pretty much at the disadvantage since he have no real priority, his normal arent that fast but average, so i will put him as mid at best, but with the right assist he have some pretty nasty unavoidable unblockable, i play casshan an polimar which i believe is one of the best assist to setup the unblockable, amazing damage output, along with some super armor special, and OTG super, and the friender, he can be very devastating, so a solid mid almost high with the right assist, as a bonus is one of the best antigigants, anyway my opinion will be mid at disadvantage without assist, but solid mid almost high with the right assist

105

Casshern is right in the middle of mid tier. I use him a lot and yeah he has a lot of disadvantages. You have to kind of zone with him and use dog a lot when he is solo. Even when you have an assist it is still good to zone with him.

106

I see Casshern as right at the bottom of high tier with or without assist. With the new way Baroque works in air, his abality to get in with a overhead is now at a 8-9 where it used to be at a 6 in CGoH. He has the best actual Box mix up in the game (Meet air to air with the opponet with a J.B, land, dash under, jump and dash back over head with J.C) with his hyper armor knee as an overhead on one side. His damage output is the best out of the mobile cast, with only the likes of Alex, Souki, Tekkaman/Blade and Polimar doing more without bar or Baroque. His specials are just down right great, his supers have to be in the top 5 in the game in use. His assist is the only assist that allows Zero to hit his Lvl 1 ground pound super and actually get good damage.

I Main him so I could be bias but it is up to peopel like me to really say where he should be right? I will go more into detail if people really want to hear it but I say he is eaisly top 8 when you play him right. Not saying you do not have to work for his damage but saying he is one of the best Baroque players in that all his special really take use of this game mechanic, and his normals are really good. The fact he has no low normals besides 2C is kinda the truth when you think about all his overheads!!

Wish you could baroque dog calls but only A and C are any good outside of baroque punish.

Top ten would look something like this. They are in order of best on down. Not to say that from like 6-10 could not be change with a better partner but as I see it solo.

  1. Ken the Eagle
  2. Yatterman-1
  3. Tekkaman Blade
  4. Zero
  5. Chun-li
  6. Ippatsuman
  7. Ryu
  8. Casshern
  9. Doronjo
  10. Batsu
107

I don’t know I am going to have to disagree with your list. Zero should be 4th but I would say Blade/Ken/Yatterman-1 then Zero. Tier list is still a bit hard to figure out but Ippatsuman is definitely in the B+ tier. Ryu is a good character but he is just solid with damage, no real good mix ups which I would place him in B tier. Chun-Li is really good in your face but over all her damage output and variety of combos gets linear where the player will figure it out what will happen most of the time. I would be placing her probably B tier. Casshern does not have the best normals, he is really solid but has little mix ups. His range on a lot of moves are short and I used Casshern on my secondary team. He is not horrible but he is not high tier which is why I would place him in bottom of B tier.

Doronjo is a good character but she really does not pair up good with a lot of characters. She works with Chun and Souki, I have yet to see another good partner with her. She has the one strong combo and a strong dhc combo with Souki. Other than that she has to rely on poking a lot and throwing stuff out. Even though she can control the playing field I think it is easy to avoid all her bombs, grab and rock. I would place her for now in high C tier.

Batsu has some good mix ups and the loop which helps him deliver good damage. He has pretty good supers and average health. His only problem is he can have a hard time getting in on an opponent. I want to say he is solid but he is not but he does not suck. I am putting him in Low B tier.

I am just expressing my opinion and knowledge from playing a lot of people. My tier list goes A, B+, B, C, D. Remember though most of these tiers are really close together.

108

I can’t say I agree either on how you rank Cash, due to his drawbacks. He is definitely solid and has great damage output, but there are a lot of things that present much difficulty in 1v1/2 matchups.

  • 3 out of his 5 specials are unsafe on block w/o Baroque. This makes him semi-dependent on red life; looking at it another way, he has to get hurt to fully utilize his abilities or requires an assist to cover/create openings.
  • His only standing Overhead is a special that can be beat out early or generally requires Baroque (fail or succeed) or a Meter for Geyser (on success) to be safe. It may have super-armor, but he can get hit out of it at the beginning of the animation.
  • The Geyser Super is great, but the Punch Super and Lvl 3 need specific conditions to be used. They will likely backfire with a punish otherwise.
  • He is a close range fighter. He needs to get in before he can do damage. This makes a difficult fight against people who can keep him at a distance.

I like Cash, but I find it difficult against characters with high mobility or good at spacing/zoning. His dive kicks can only do so much to cover distance. I do agree that his assist is extremely useful (plus work as a pseudo anti-air), along with his dog specials, but that is what he is faced with.

109

OK, I like this because if can keep my composure and really rebut these then cash will be looked at differently. First I would like to say that DevilChrist’s post was not really talking about cash more of my tier list so to him I will say that cash’s normals have gotten a big buff from CGoH so his normals are going to be much better in that regards at the very least. This we can agree on right? That is what a buff is, making the moves better. Doronjo goes with many players you just may not play them. She is not much different in this than in CGoH, where we saw high level Doronjo’s play with Tekka, Volutt, Yatter, and Karas all with great DHC’s and good loops and great keep away. My tier list is S with 4 and A+ with 6 and A with 5 and A- with 4 B+ and B with 3 each. I stop at B because I really do not see many players with no potential at all except those that are not worth it (the three in B Volutt,Karas,Frank West more of the first two because of their low health and stupid hard shit. Frank I just do not like at all but hey I did find/prove to the community and post vids on the release day of 2C to OTG zombie cart so I got some love for him)

No to jtrgmr’s post. No players in the game are “Good” 1v1/2, some just can deal reall well and others are kinda made for it. Ken Yatter Doronjo is about all there is, with Ippatsuman kinda up there with the other three.

What special’s are “safe on block?” Punch is unsafe, Dive kick is unsafe, Ground pound is un safe, Knee is un safe, and only A dog is safe because it is an overhead and the hit box to stop it is really weird. That is all five that are unsafe, and brings me back to my orignal post that he is the best baroque player since you have to learn how to use it really well to play him really high level. I will explain later.

A dog is a “standing overhaed” and if you mix it in with knee it really makes beating out knee hard to do on reaction. Since when you wistle for frinder he comes out no matter if you get hit or not. Causing knock down for ground pound special into super if you want but you can just stop at special for a quick punish and to get your opponet not to attack when they think you are going to do a knee. TK dive kick also beats out all crouching B’s that cancle super armor so that is another mix you can add. Those three mix well since one is sure to give you baroque and make the opponet attack hig instead of low if done right(A frinder), the other is going to beat out all high attemtps (A and B Knee) and the last will beat out all low cruch normals that beat out knee (A dive kick TKed)

Regular jump back dash B dive kick, Baroque dash back/foward, jump again, dash foward/back, jump again, dash foward/back, then you attack with J.B, J.C, or you can dive kick+assist since you are still in normal jump and not super jump. This cuts a lot of space.

If you are playing a keep away player they are giving you block Baroque or just putting small amounts of damage off you which equals a lot of times for you to use baroque on all your unsafe specials. Ground pound is also great for cutting space since it hits so high and give you a great deal of priority and you can Baroque and block a special for, more Baroque. C knee is aslo a really good tool to use on cutting space as well as C punch. Which can be charge to bait your opponet to come more foward to attack, which even cuts more space.

Your last two points are kinda weird to me as Punch seup is the best DHC super in the game, nothing allows for better shit on DHC. Six shot Cannon with ease,Lvl 2 charge with Souki (might even get a lvl 3 if you time it right) Polimar Drill super with ease, Zeros ground pound super with ease, also an almost full charge buster shot when you DHC to his “clone” super because of the stun of the second hit. I am sure there are more supers that requier his punch super but I really am not playing the whole cast like I used to. You find a better way to net real damage off the supers I just mentioned in a DHC(besides Zero’s “clone” super which is not that hard to get good damage off of, but is hard to recieve a full charge on ground for.)

Now, his mix-up game is right up there with Zero and Karas DP mix up. I mean what do you guys call a mix-up really? I will give an example and then show how his work. Ok when you are in a bolck sting with Karas and you do 2.C into dp with A, you can Baroque early and attack low or you can Baroque late and get 2 J.A’s for double over heads. This is a 50/50 mix-up for your opponet to block low or block high once and then low or twice high and then low. Now on to Cash:

Just an air to air jump B gives you enough time to get to the ground and dash under, jump and dash back overhead with a J. C. Or you can Dash under and A knee that can not be beat out by any normals and has to be blocked on the other side and high. Now to build off this simple setup:

A and B knee setup this up as you can Baroque the knee on hit and jump iad B and go into the mix-up. B punch causes stagger so the next hit will pop up the opponet, so if you Baroque that hit and iad B you get the setup off that. All ground pounds will also create this as you can again Baroque and iad B for mix-up. B dive kick causes knock back so again if you Baroque the hit you can just dash right out of the hit and J.B and create the mix-up. How many is that? Those are all great things to have in your game with any player. I know you will say something about needing Baroque for all of them but that is why I said he is the best Baroque player.

Just because it is hard to play against the better than him players does not make him any less of a threat. Kinda like Souki. Just because there are better than him players does not make him any less of a threat if you play him right.

Tiers are not the end all to be all when you understand the game at the level of the creators, since they really did not make the players to be better than one another, just made them to compete with one another. I think I have covered most of his stuff but if you have any more questions just ask away.

I might cover my tier list later but really as I said people will agree to disagree when it comes to tiers since the game is not that popular and we have not seen any Cashes that play like I do or even how I say to play him.

How abaout this my top 5 teams, that might be more intersting right?

  1. Tekka Blade/Tekka
  2. Ken the eagle/Tekka
  3. Ippatsuman/ Tekkaman
  4. Casshern/Polimar
  5. Doronjo/Souki

Now that is really how I see this 2v2 game. any team with a death DHC is going to be better than a team with a death VAR since you can not crash after super screen. But 4 out of the five on that list have a Death DHC and A Death Var so I mean that is how I see it for now. Or since the game has been out and VAR change the game so much.

110

I am going to have to disagree with Casshern having mix ups like Zero and Karas because he does not. Maybe his mix up game is underrated but it is not with Zero and Karas mix up game. Your tier list IMO should have A through D tier but B and B+ tier only because a lot of characters in mid tier. I would need to see some videos of you playing to rethink how Casshern is. Playing against somewhat high level players too. I mean from my experience I been playing RoyalFlush, ll.nd, Rotanibor, Rayzrbyrn, Phampy and then had a couple practice sessions at places with Marn, Kbeast and Keits. So this is where I am basing my information off of which is from playing these people. The first 5 are who I play with the most. Also 1v1 like you saying how Ken and Doronjo can deal good by them self is half right. Doronjo is pretty bad by herself but it may just be since I know the match up pretty well. Ken can run away but if he gets in close you can block and punish him. Yatterman-1 I do not play enough so I can’t really say here but Ippatsuman has one of the best comeback potentials. Blade can actually have a comeback potential on par with Ken but his you mainly have to wait for player to mess up or grab them to make them attack since opponent can choose to block all day.

So Saequo I would like to see some of your matches because right now most of the stuff your saying with Casshern is not really proving much. I use Casshern a lot too and some stuff I agree on but mix up wise my options get blocked a lot.

111

So you use the box mix up?? I know you do not. Just check out the CGoH vids. See this is why I lose it. You know very little and can not even read the post to respond correctly. I understand that you control over the players is medium at best but just try to get down the box mix up and then we will talk.

I clearly said that his mix-up is on the level with Karas and Zeros DP mix up!!! Read man, not all of their mix-ups just the one that I mentioned. He has that one setup but as long as you have control over your player it will hit every time you want it to. With his damage potential being as it is, one combo into mix-up means 36-43 bill if you want to burn the bar and if 46 if you can save the baroque til after the mix-up.

I would think I type pretty clearly. Just go into training mode and get the box mix-up off all the option I have said. You are not even addressing what I have said, instead telling me I need to show you. Just go and apply it. Simple.

BTW something as simple as using Baroque on the tree bomb guy 623A,B,C into tk’ed air goon is a big difference in how doronjo is played. None of the doronjos use that at all. She can run and do great damage from across the screen, while all you can do is knock little bits of life off her (because she is always in air.) giving her more and more baroque to run or keep bombs on the screen safe as shit!! Like I said watch the old vids of CGoH and you will see more of what I am talking about.

This new breed has no clue that the japs really did make this game what it is today. Look at phampy, he is IMHO hands down the best player in the states, but for what ever reason (probly his age) he does not apply all of himself to the game all the time. He also plays one of the best teams in the game, just like the Japs played them in CGoH, minus the air throw setup, which is new to the UAS game so it was not a part of their game plan in CGoH. Oh and the 623A into J.B land into ken/tekka loop. I do not belive that was in CGoH bu it could have been. It is hella smart tho.

112

Okay dude I don’t know what the box mix up is, Of course if you go into training mode you can apply it all the time because they are not a real player. I type pretty clearly as well and read your posts. You talk a lot but I don’t see anything from you so yeah. Yeah the Japanese were good at CGoH but I think UAS we are at the level of Japanese or better. So instead of talking all this saequo, you should post some matches. Show me the box mix up since I have never heard of it. See you just talk but you have nothing to back it up. Your always talking on these forums so post some evidence of your info you talk to back it up. If not then GTFO.

113

The Japs were good at CGoH?? They were everything in that game we did nothing but find cheap shit that did not build the scene at all. Just make the game look broke. Volutt, Doronjo, Ken the Eagle, Cash, etc… They did it all nd gave it to us and we did nothing with it.

We are not on their level.

Check my youtube page, Every time I prove someting I get trolled bad with shitty comments and the such Why prove shit anymore, just tell people and have them go and try it out. If you want to say it is nt good then fine, just do not say you use it when we both know you do not have that much control over any of the cast to make it work like I have.

Just agree to disagree, I am not shit and that is not how you shoud play cash, use your mix-up that do not work and talk shit on others.

Make sense now.

If I make a vid it would get trolled just like these have been check the date that is release day me proving exactly what I said was possible andpeople called me out and I posted it and nothing but bullshit happened.:

114

So just post a vid to prove your point. You may be right about you have more control over the cast than I do but I only play 5 characters. I don’t have a page but plenty of my matches are up, I think you know I am Tronzilla666. Sometimes my srk name confuses people even when my PSN tag is on it. No offense but the reason why you get trolled a lot, you always try to prove something and put people down so you come off as a douchebag.

So I watched your videos and you have some cool VAR. They seem practical but also depending on how you use it, the player may expect it. All your matches are just combos. Do you play against people at all? I would like to see some of you facing other people. Speaking of DHC I just figured out a strong one with Blade and Tekkaman.

115

I know who you are and that is why I say you do not have enough control “yet” to even get the box mix-up on command. which is why I tell you to go to training room to actually ge the box motions down, then try it on the comp and perfect it, then take it to real matches, get punished for trying it, get better and look bam, 40 bill on one mix-up, and a real mix-up at that. cassher/Alex death combos with one mix-up!! Belive it or not I reall do not care.

I am a douche and am proud of it. but that does not mean I am not right all the time. If I can say something before the game ever comes out, IE: If frank can OGT Zombie cart off of 2C he will be broke/have an infinite. And then prove that it is right and now look he has an infinite off the exact same setup I said he would. On release day with a player i do not even like a litlle bit. I must understand the game a whole lot better than most. Damn I wish i could find all my old posts about this shit. man it would be funny.

That should be respected no matter how much of a douche I am. I am right and that is that. Call me a name and shit like I care, I am just trying to help others and most if not all of the scene wants others to be in the dark.

No need to post up shit unless it is a MM or a Tourney I go to. People are just haters and that is the way it is. I will just do like guile says and raise my 3 kids and love my wife. I think I will go make another child now!!

116

Alright. This is getting a bit heated so let’s just try to keep this on the level.

@Saeten

I’m posting from my phone so ill scope out your vids later. Are there any match vids?

As for the Doronjo thing…there are several reasons not to do your block string listed above. The first is that you don’t want to waste your bbq in block strings. The one you listed would just be a waste because your damage boost would wear off before you landed a clean hit.

Is 5C even jump cancellable? If it is not (and I don’t think it is) your string is punishable by a throw (ll.nd is champ at this). If it can be jc’d, then IAD.C would be a better option as it is faster and has more priority. You could then use her true mix up with quick-drop rocks and be in a better position.

Also, 5C is really bad without assist cover. If you check any of my tourney vids you’ll see me using safe block string pressure tactics including numerous setups for tk rocks.

I’ll check on the 5C jump cancel thing when I get home, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t work because it would give her an infinte (5C xx IAD.A - A - C / repeat). Now…if this works…GOOD LORD!

Sent from my HERO200 using Tapatalk

117

ude I am not talking about a block sting at all. I am talikkng about runaway, period. Get half screen and call a tree bomb, Baroque it and tk an air goon. keep distance and keep making them hit you in air to give you more baroque. You play her the way you want but anyone who was really into the game in the CGoH days knows that shit like that is what makes her really good. She is a keep away player. Yes you can rush with her but that is only one part of her. You never run away at all and that is your playstlye, make it work for you. But the vids speak for themselves, those jap Doronjos with Voultt and Ken and Tekka were much better and that is one of the very many reasons why. They played her how she was meant to be played not how they wanted to play her.

Just run away a little, I am not saying it will make your doronjo way better but it will help you see something new by creating options you are not seeing by your playstyle.

118

I’m pretty sure Doronjo has an infinite or a loop at least off of j.a and iad b since I’ve seen a Japanese stream with someone doing it to Tekkaman when the game first came out.

Oh and I probably don’t do that well since I don’t have much tourney experience. EVO was only my third tournament after all lol

Anyways, my opinion on top 4 is:

Blade
Zero
Y1
Ken

119

?!?! Ok buddy. I don’t want to start some internet shouting match here. I’m just going to say that your analysis of my Doronjo and the cgoh Japanese Doronjo players is wrong.

You run with Doronjo when the matchup dictates it. When you out prioritize all of your opponents options, you rush down. When you don’t, you run. My run away with Doronjo is on point, but that’s not her strong suit. You want to control the flow of the match and pick an opening. Blanket running is not the way to roll.

Did you see my t8 match vs RF? Or my match in round 2 vs Tron? Or how about my matches vs Phampy? Or the matches from mwc that were streamed? Or me and Marn’s interrupted race to 10 that ended 7-7? Or any of my sessions with PJ, PRO, Keits, or anyone for that matter? If you did, you’d see what I’m talking about. You run when its time to run…you rush when its time to rush.

It’s rather insulting when you come in here and give veiled criticizim when you have never played me or seen 2% of my actual play. I’ve never once criticized your supposed Cash skills and that’s because you probably know a bit more about the char than me (probably).

You are viewing the entire scene through a narrow lens. How about you widen your focus with actual experience before you jab.

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edit:
At home now and reread your post about 623A, B, C bbq Tree Bomb. I misread that on my phone as a block string ending in C followed by tk.Rock. Using a bbq there is usually a waste of red life. If you have more than 25% of the screen distance, the tree will be safe and you keep them pinned with a normal tk.Rock. This is something that you will just feel once you play her some. That is controlling space…and yes, I use this tactic often.

120

That loop is char spec and doesn’t use 5C. It’s j.B jc.IAD.B B /. It’s very strict on the timing too. If you could use 5C in the loop, the it would much easier and you could modify it a bit to make it easier.

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