Knowing the optimal dizzy normals/specials and making sure you don’t use a suboptimal one is pretty useful, especially against characters that dizzy easily. Some characters need all the help they can get against sim. How many people knew that blanka’s dj.hp did terrible dizzy? Although dj.hp and dj.hk have much different properties in this matchup, making sure you avoid pressing dj.hp when you’re sure to get a deep jump-in on sim is very useful to know.
Almost all of the time the best jump-in dizzy is just gonna be a jumping hard attack. There might be some attack or throw that has bizarrely high dizzy though that’s been overlooked.
So, my argument is that the properties of moves (hit boxes, attributes such as start up time, number of hitting frames, and recovery) are so much more important than the degree of dizzy, that you would never select a normal based on it’s dizzy properties rather than it’s other attributes. Only in cases where two normals are functionally equivalent but one normal does far more dizzy would knowing the dizzy numbers be useful.
I’m happy to be argued around, but that’s how it seems to me.
i really hate how sim is able to dizzy almost any character with 2 hits, fuck that, fuck it man!, however, ken vs sim is an interesting matchup, i love it, call me masoquist.
that’s why i love to play vs optimo, robbiers and other good sim players.
SPD is a grab, after grabbing the other player, the throw happens, the other grabs you mention are known as “holds” yet both throws and holds are grabs, because you first grab them, then either a hold or a throw happens, depending the button pressed.
Yeah you’re right geo. I’ve been testing some other chars while watching streams and there’s some really bizarre stun values set for normals. There’s a lot of hard close/jumping normals that just randomly have really low stun. There might be some overlooked thing w/ really high stun for no good reason who knows.
Sirlin mentioned that LP spd does the least damage and most stun of the different strength spds while HP spd does the opposite on both spectrums. I’m not sure if he validated that through the code but do your tests corroborate that info, CBO? Also, would you happen to have any noticeably strange stun values for claw by any chance?
I still think that the “universal” truths that they’ve found don’t quite correlate to every character. I still notice that shotos seem to gain more consistent stun off their medium attacks… so I’m still thinking the ranges of stun inflicted matter in some way.
I think the reason LP SPD is the best for stun is because it deals damage/stun a bit earlier than the other versions. The dizzy timer goes to 0 before the SPD hurts them most of the time (and goes back to 0 before they wakeup 99% of the time). I kind of doubt it actually does noticeably more stun than the other versions. Even if it did, it would only apply to situations where you can get the dizzy timer high enough to allow the SPD stun to contribute to the total stun (xup splash + cr. lp x4). By then you will probably have generated enough stun to dizzy them with almost anything anyway.
I’ve been 2 hit dizzied as Zangief from Dhalsim’s far mk/hp before. Dhalsim in general is probably dizzies me more than anyone else. I’d bet his stun values are bs. I’ve also noticed that vega’s roll thing and ken’s tatsus give them like an hour to dizzy you after they hit. Sagat’s tiger shots also seem to have bs stun properties compared to other fireballs. What would I need to check this stuff out?
When does the dizzy timer get added and when does it start counting down? I’m guessing it starts the frame you hit them and counts down right after that, but does it ever stop counting down (like during hit freeze or the lag when a projectile hits someone)? Also how often does it do the minimum or maximum stun? Is there like an equal chance for any number within the range or is it weighted towards the average?
If you want to check the values yourself, use the ST world version rom in mame and put a watch on these hex addresses:
00ff88ad dizzy
00ff28ed last attack dizzy
00ff88ab dizzy timer
The timer gets added right when you take damage and counts down immediately on the next frame. The timer counts down through hitstun, blockstun, knockdown, throw animations, etc (but not super freeze). The timer counts down at 75/second I think since the game simulates at that speed (while the graphics/input is 60 fps). The dizzy seems weighted toward the middle in some way w/ the minimum and maximum having very low chances of occurring.
After testing a few more chars, I think the general dizzy values for moves is as follows:
template
move stun time notes
ground light 0-5 40
ground med 5-11 60
ground hard 11-16 80
cr.hk 6-11 130 sweep
dj light 2-7 40
dj med 6-11 50
dj hard 11-17 60
nj light 1-7 40
nj med 5-11 50
nj hard 11-17 60
normal throws 7-13 100
common bizarrely little move values:
ground hard 3-8 40
ground hard 1-7 70
nj mid 2-5 40
dj hard 4-8 40
I think this generally applies to most normals in the game vs ryu. Some values might be off by 1-2 and it might differ slightly for some chars who have slightly more/less dizzy, but it shouldn’t really matter. When I post chars later I’m just going to post the wierd moves that deviate from that template or are unintuitively low.
It is just that most shotos Fierce and Roundhouse attacks have been nerfed in terms of stun. This is blatant when you compare to Chun, Zangief or pretty every other character in the game.
I see him doing an uppercut, and WAY too many colors spazzing out in the background. I just think the way it’s edited, its made to appear as if his super was a dragon punch.
I believe it is a beta/test version. Some friends told me it would flash the screen if specials were used to finish the enemy and also that Gief’s cr.RH did chip damage, but it would never kill on block.
thats probably it. in the 1994 SSF2 tournament uploaded to youtube that included beta footage of ST a kid finished off a guile with feis dp and the super flash occurred. ive never heard about that gief sweep thing though (in fact this is all i know about beta ST entirely. anyone know where i can read more? a little curious)
i still think the super flash is one of the coolest ko animations in any fighting game and id imagine itd be pretty annoying if it was left like that
I remember some beta talk from alt.games.sf2, Blanka’s hop was fully invinicible (both backwards/towards), Chicken Wing/Hooligan were fireball motions. Ryu’s Super was also fully invincible. And the super freeze was a bit longer (you can notice that in the Norcal SSF2 footage w/beta ST).
Nice, thanks for posting this! I had checked that, it was the first video I have looked when Fuud gave us the link to that SSF2 Tournament thread. I recall it was created when I started lurking SRK. I was impressed that Watson was punishing every mid/close distance Hadouken from Ken with Ryu’s Tatsumaki, for a trade. BTW, that kid playing Fei did great, specially cos it was just a beta.
I believe credit should go where it is due: earqueman was the person who has told me of that. He kindly picked me at the airport for a ST gathering he was doing at his place, and told me about the old scene at his town, Curitiba, on the way to such gathering.