The two things you mention aren’t the two main factors that make fighting Claw with Ryu tough. You should look up videos of Jay “Viscant” Snyder and see what his Vega tends to do. The wall dive isn’t something he does while opponents are standing up…and certainly not something he does against people with good reversal timing. As for walk up throws…you won’t have to worry about those at first…because both Ryu’s crouching forward and Hadouken attempts get stuffed by Claw’s superior ground game consisting of crouching strong, standing forward, and standing fierce (once in a while). And, of course, throwing a Hadouken inside of Claw’s jumping range is a great way of eating at least three hits. Once Ryu stops relying on crouching forward, then he’ll have to contend with Claw’s crouching forward block strings, 3K Backflip fakes, walk up throws, Barcelona Rolls to chip off some life, and good ol’ max range crouching roundhouse mixed in for good measure.
While all of that makes Claw a very hard opponent for Ryu, I still think Boxer is tougher to fight.
Both of the tactics you mentioned can be defeated by the same move: crouching fierce. Close/standing strong if they’re feeling generous. If you jump, you leave Balrog with time to decide your fate. If he’s not charged at the time, you’ll eat a crouching fierce. If he is charged, you’ll likely eat a Dashing Upper or a Buffalo Headbutt…and the throw shenanigans begin…or he could just clobber you with a Crazy Buffalo SC and press kick the whole way to uppercut you out of the air to death. Leaving your feet against Balrog, especially if you’re cornered, is very dangerous.
Sagat vs. Ryu is actually more even, IMHO. Remember that Ryu’s Shinkuu Hadouken combined with the 2 frame faster than Sagat’s Tiger Shots on his Hadouken startup gives him the edge in the projectile war. Ryu can be as close as mid-range and as far away as full screen and react to a Tiger Shot with a Shinkuu Hadouken for 40% damage. The only way Sagat gets an edge is if he somehow gets ahead in life and out-turtles Ryu…which he has a good chance of doing thanks to his normals. Sagat may have the easiest and most consistent ToD in the game, but cross-ups always lose to reversal Shoryukens, so that’s not in the equation.
Dhalsim has the tools to make Ryu’s fight against him as hard as Claw…maybe…but he has to work a whole lot harder to do that, which is why I think Balrog is a much harder fight for Ryu, IMHO.
I’m sure a matchup master will correct me where I’m wrong.
My scrub point of view is that Sagat may now lose a projectile war against Ryu, but he does not need to. At any time, he can give up and do jp.rh (straight up or jumping forward) and punish Ryu for throwing another projectile, while Ryu pretty much has to guess to do something about low tiger shots, being that jumping straight up is not an option. The exception is Ryu’s super, but, most frequently, [media=youtube]3iDUZQLkzUg"[/media] (at 7 min 49 s and 8 min 34 s), for just 10% damage, as Sagat’s arms have hitboxes far enough so he recovers if he is not full screen away or cornered. The match was terrible in ST for the old version and on Ryu’s favor for the new version, but Ryu had to take the initiative. But I think that is not a factor in tiers, where high level play is considered and Ryu is supposed to be played by ShootingD, Daigo, Valle and such, who can pressure without doing anything stupid (like I always do :mad:).
But then what do you against Claw? Especially Claws that like to always keep the down/back charge… I can’t seem to do almost nothing against this strategy. Playing footies with Claw is a pain in the ass is what comes down to and he controls the space above very well too. Before, coming into this fight, I would always try to spam c.lk’s a lot to beat Claw’s slide, but then it became obvious that I was starting to trade more with the slide rather than stuffing it. Then I switch my strategy to doing lk tatsu’s to go over the slides so I could grab him but then it became a case of trying to guess when Claw is going to do his slide. If you do it any other time, the lk tatsu can be beat by almost anything, his c.mp, his blackflip, etc. Of course, I tried to jab dp Claw’s pokes like c.mp but, of course, a Claw will start baiting your dp attempts if you start doing this and punish you accordingly. On his wake up, it seems that all he needs to do is a reversal to escape unharmed, which is fairly annoying if you are trying to cross him up with a j.hk… so in this case, should I stick to the tatsu cross ups? In the air, Claw is just a nightmare. I know that dp on reaction is a good skill to have but doing dp’s in clutch moments for me in this game is really hard to do. Is there normals that do an ok job of stuffing Claw’s air specials? Or is it just better to stick with dp’s since if you start jumping Claw will just start using his grab move?
Any help is greatly appreciate it. I don’t really want to start playing another character to start countering that spanish whore But if I must I will. Thanks.
Ryu vs. Claw just sucks, Ryu really has to preempt Claw a lot and Claw really doesn’t have to guess much in his game plan. Still, I like playing the matchup just because it’s fun to overcome it and it’s a lot of fun overall even though it’s lopsided.
[media=youtube]8UU3ZkpsxYc[/media]
You can see Gotoh’s finesse, but even he pulls out a lot of Shenanigans to deal with Claw.
I love this match up too. While it’s heavily lopsided for claw, neither side gets away with anything for free, both players have to think to get their damage in, Ryu just happens to have to think a lot more.
Nearly everything in this match up is high risk, high reward. If the claw player is able to out think you and predict your patterns you’re really fucked. If you’re able to pick up on his patterns and out think him, then you have a great shot, provided your execution is up to snuff.
You basically have your anti air tactics for stuffing his flying barcelona attack. Close and crouching fierce are ideal if you know he’s directly over head, if he’s crossing you up at too great a distance or stopping too short it’s incredibly risky to stick anything out there but annoying to just block high and take the chip damage as well. I actually have trouble here so maybe others can help. I would just say work on executing in the clutch but it’s really about knowing which angle he’s coming at you from and if he’s going for the izuna drop or just sticking the claws out there.
For the other air special, I really don’t know I haven’t played claw players who use this very well unless I’m predictably jumping back to not deal with izuna drop shenanigans. Even in that case it can be beat out with a lucky. I’m pretty sure it’s not going low enough to miss a hadouken and still hitting so you don’t have to worry about it too much unless you’re incredibly fireball shy. At least it doesn’t knock down any more, so it’s really not the biggest factor in the match up.
But yeah just remember about what you can do. Don’t be too afraid to play your game, you can still make him eat or block your fireballs if he’s not on his toes and you can make it hard for even vega to work his way in on you, you can still srk anything he predictably sticks out there, you have your overhead, you have your walk up throw, and cr strong is very underutilized. You can bait out his wake up reversals too like he does yours. You can put a lot of pressure on him; just don’t take anything for granted.
You want to keep him away at all costs since if he gets into close range, he’ll man-handle you. The way you achieve this is by using your fb’s. Fireball him wisely, always making him guess and also fake him out with a crouch then st.jab or fake hadou. The point of zoning with fb’s is not only to keep him away but also force him to dive at you at the correct distance. If he dives from this distance you’ll recover in time to jab srk his dive attempt or you can also do st.jab’s to hit his dive too. Be careful though, I think I’ve played smart T-Hawks where they dive and totally whiff to bait you into whiffing your srk… they land close to you and that’s when they get their opening (I’m not certain about this, it could have just been my shitty spacing). If you block a dive, it is possible to hit T-Hawk afterwards with a j.rh in the air, but timing for that is a bit difficult and it also depends where on your body T-Hawk hits you (you want him to hit high).
This is all based on ST though, but it should still somewhat relevant
The main problem I had was if and ever he got in, he’d get me in the corner and st.RH. Not sure what Ryu has that can beat that other than a psychic DP, but I’m not gonna rely on psychic DPs as a strategy.
Little tip that helps my Guile should apply to Ryu as well, FB pressure, JAB the dive or DP if he telegraphs the dive, proper spacing will allow you to back up then sweep/cr.mk - FB a dive landing as well.
Active movement with FBs and smart jabs and anti airs (DP in Ryus case), you sorta treat it like Honda actually.
This is a very basic idea, but it is a good starting point for your defense. (There are of course several other techniques I am sure.)
The only Guile I’ve ever played online that made me think Guile was a mismatch was Brian. Battosai has a really good Guile too, but he’s not quite as mind-numbingly patient as Brian. SMM aka solo marine had a good Guile too, but I think he uses turbo, and it looks like he moved on to Ryu anyway.
Mismatches are definitely still Vega/Sim/Boxer, although I can’t seem to do shit when I play my Sim against any decent HK-using Ryu :wasted:
Gradx, I don’t really use Air Tatsu against Sagat, but against Guile, Dee Jay, Claw and Chun Li, an early Air Tatsu works great to beat their anti airs. The kind of Air Tatsu that crosses them up will always beat the Somersault, Upkicks and Flipkicks, as it goes behind them and Ryu smacks them on the way down, same for Ken and Akuma.
However against Sagat, I can see why the Air Tatsu would beat an anti air Uppercut, but ONLY IF the Air Tatsu has the same invincible startup as the regular Tatsu, which I don’t think it does. I also play Sagat a lot, and I haven’t had much experience against Ryu’s Air Tatsus, but what little experience I have had, leads me to believe that the Air Tatsu is not invincible on startup, as I have no problems Uppercutting it at any range.
Hope that helped. Maybe someone with more experience can share their opinion.
Go into training mode and turn on hitboxes. Jump and do each version of the aerial Hurricane Kick. If you see the blue hitbox that represents your vulnerable area disappear at some point, that part of the move has invincibility. Do a :lk: Hurricane Kick on the ground to see what I mean.
Be sure to report back what you find. This oughta be interesting.
I actually believe this matchup is really tight, and there’s a lot of natural elements in this matchup that can make a lot of Ryu’s crumble and fuck up somewhere. The first thing is that Hawk has a really small arc on his jump, which also makes it hard to AA on reaction if he’s forcing you to hold d/b a lot with his scary normals (s.strong works wonders against Ryu, and from close jump ins j. jab has such a good hitbox that you have to antiair him very quickly). The small arc also means he can empty jump a lot at him from about mid range, since Ryu’s DP won’t hit him and trip guarding means your running a risk of having claw do land > DP to get a quick easy knock down into possible GGPO. Hawk dive is also an issue here because it changes his arc halfway through the jump, which at certain ranges means you have to anti air him differently depending on when, and where, he chooses to do it.
I think a good thing to try and get better at doing is max punishing any whiffed Hawk DP’s, instead of going for some basic damage, it helps a lot in this matchup because it doesn’t feel like the type of matchup where Hawk has to totally be a genius to get in and outsmart you, it feels more like a sinking ship where the ryu player knows it’s just a matter of time before the hawk gets in, and if he knows his ticks and Hawk B&B’s it’s likely over.
I’m having an odd problem, and search didn’t turn up anything. When I’m cornered with Ryu, which happens fairly frequently, if I get knocked down, I’m having a really hard time reversal DPing.
Thing is, when opponents jump at you while you’re down in the corner, there are a few frames where they’re considered on the other side of you. It’s screwing with my timing. Anyone have any good tips other than ‘do the motion as late as possible’? Online play always makes it difficult to do things with any amount of precision…
Also, in training mode, I’ve managed to pull off the “top-spin” hurricane kick that allows you to fly over low tiger shots for easy mode super against Sagat, and I find that it sometimes allows me to cross-up players in the corner, but not always. Is there a specific reason for that, or is it just random who can/can’t be crossed up?
If they’re jumping over you, they’re crossing you up. Otherwise, they are right in front of you and you just do the DP motion the right way. When you hit the punch button, piano the punch inputs (eg: Hit the fierce, then medium, then light, then release fierce, release medium, and release light). This gives you 6 chances for the DP to come out, as opposed to just one. Also, online play sucks anyway.
I think the “top-spin” hurricane you’re talking about is what is referred to as a “juice kick”. Hurricane kicks already go over low tiger shots to begin with, they’re most useful against high tiger shots where they go right over it and you get the knockdown usually. Crossing up people with juice kicks is dependant on what character and how far away you are from them when you do it. It’s not corner specific, you can cross people up mid-screen too.
boxer is such a tough match and the throw loop makes it even worse…ive been told you can reversal throw or reversal dragon punch out of it but i have yet to land either and i try everytime.
as for akuma…i stay away most of the time while they jump around and throw the air fireball… when they are close enough you can usually dragon punch through it and get a hit. it may trade but akuma takes much more damage than you will. eventually they try something else and thats when the fight begins. get inside and bait reversal DP’s and start mind games. also…correctly timed air hurricane kicks will suprise them and make them think twice about jumping. the fireball will take priority…but if you are quicker than they are and it hits…it usually lessens the amount of jumping fireballs they do.
I find the answer to most problems is to try and control the tempo. Against the better players this becomes much more difficult but it’s the best recipe for success.
With Akuma, just be patient and try to catch him with a dp. You could also try using the hurricane kick mid air to mix up their game plan. Another option is to max out your super meter to limit his choices and give him something to think about. You don’t want to be jumping ariound or fireballing a lot when he has a full super meter.
When you’re in the corner, and someone jumps at you, the game does something weird. If they “touch” the side wall, for a brief moment, even though you’re in the corner, the game thinks they’ve gone past you, just before it pushes them back in front of you. Test it out. Pick Ryu, go against Ken or whatever, and knock the computer down in the corner. Jump at him, and do the hurricane kick with the d, df, f + k, and it’ll come out if you time it right. All I’m saying is that this is usually the time I’ve started my motion for a reversal DP and because I’m essentially doing it a bit too early, the game registers it as an incorrect input, because they’re already on the other side.
Wish I could put it up on a video or something to make it clearer. Anyhow, I’ve just gotten in the habit of starting the reversal motion a bit later and doing it faster. And yes, I understand piano inputs
And as far as the juice kick crossing up: With Dictator, you can cross people up in the corner (see http://streetfighterdojo.com/superturbo/dictator/specialcrossups/) which is normally not possible. It sometimes does the same thing with the Juice kick. I don’t know if it’s just because they weren’t all the way to the very corner and I didn’t notice, or what, but I can’t seem to duplicate that cross up consistently.
But if I must I will. Thanks.
