The Street Fighter V Lounge: We all gotta chill 'til the end of April

[NupoChromine]

Whiff punishing is way easier when It’s a bot doing the exact same thing on a timer.

[DevilJin_01]

Whiff punishing is way easier when It’s a bot doing the exact same thing on a timer.

It is, but very possible within matches considering Vega’s walk speed and the range of his BH s.MP. Definitely viable and something a top Vega player shouldn’t have any trouble doing.

[Frost]

Learn to whiff punish

http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/4/8/8/0/4/1488043180638149.gif?1488043212

I don’t understand why a top Urien player would press st.hp at that range. Surely they’d press cr.mk to check low and stay + on block at the midrange.

[Zeniside]

Just ignore the gif. It is mostly flawed.

I want to see all Kolin frame data.

[DevilJin_01]

I don’t understand why a top Urien player would press st.hp at that range. Surely they’d press cr.mk to check low and stay + on block at the midrange.

They could do that but Vega can also easily whiff punish whiffed c.MK with slide. Vega’s s.MK also generally stuffs it.

[Nobus3r1]

Seeing fighting game players talk about balance is always such an interesting thing. Even among people who have played these games for real years of their lives, there is rarely a consensus between the mindset that strong tactics must be destroyed versus taking characters without those tactics and improving them. This has become way more obvious in the very fast paced world of patching games every x amount of months.

It is an interesting philosophical question. I think, for better or worse, a lot of it comes down to applying the minimal changes to the ecosystem without completely destroying everything. For example, let’s say you have a game of 20 characters and one character has a setup that over half the cast has zero answer to. In that case it’s easier to change the one character than it is to give 10+ characters an answer to that setup, yes? However, once you start getting into less black and white situations it becomes really hard to predict what the outcome of any given change is because companies generally don’t even try to come close to a scientific approach to changes. It would be nice if they did (i.e. an ongoing beta server that has very minimal change applied at any given time) but I don’t see that happening. Which is really a shame.

[Quark]

I don’t understand why a top Urien player would press st.hp at that range. Surely they’d press cr.mk to check low and stay + on block at the midrange.

yeah, but the dude in the video was complaining about urien being able to abuse st.HP at that range

really instead of making it about urien being too good he should have made the video about vega’s claw normals having awful hit/hurtboxes, since that’s the bigger problem

I do think CCs and normals in general should be more whiff punishable but fixing that is a big project that would require major frame data changes to every character and not just nerfing urien

[Frost]

I don’t understand why a top Urien player would press st.hp at that range. Surely they’d press cr.mk to check low and stay + on block at the midrange.

They could do that but Vega can also easily whiff punish whiffed c.MK with slide. Vega’s s.MK also generally stuffs it.

fantastic but that means Vega is out of range for everything other than f.hp, slide and maybe st.mp. Your options are lesser all to work around whiff punishing his cr.mk? Fuck it, just dash in and close the distance, you have more options there.

I don’t understand why a top Urien player would press st.hp at that range. Surely they’d press cr.mk to check low and stay + on block at the midrange.

yeah, but the dude in the video was complaining about urien being able to abuse st.HP at that range

really instead of making it about urien being too good he should have made the video about vega’s claw normals having awful hit/hurtboxes, since that’s the bigger problem

I do think CCs and normals in general should be more whiff punishable but fixing that is a big project that would require major frame data changes to every character and not just nerfing urien

I didn’t read anything before that post, the concept in general was dumb.

[Valoon]

Seems more like a Vega is trash and Urien is top tier kind of problem rather than a SFV problem. Don’t know why he goes on about competition and whatnot.

[HNIC_Mike]

Lets not dismiss the video entirely. It does come across as a bit salty, and there are counter plays. But he has a point.

Risk reward does need to be reworked on some of these crush counter pokes.

It looks like they decided at random who gets big damage on crush and who gets nothing. They just threw it on a bunch of heavy attacks without any bearing on the frame data or hitboxes of the buttons by themselves.

[Necrotrophic]

by this time we had a reasonably good idea about what sf4 was. sure games technically develop over long periods of time, but sfv seems pretty cut and dry. its all set play and

So on the one hand you’re IMO more or less right about SFV. The game isn’t super complicated, there’s Twitter, Discord chats of both the open and secret variety and there’s Youtube. A game released in 2016 gets dissected a hell of a lot faster than a game released in 2009 did. On the other hand you are in no way, shape or form correct about SFIV being mostly figured out after one year. Even discounting the lack of dissemination of information (Twitter, Discord, Youtube) the fact that you couldn’t reliably count on tournament stations to have all of the unlockable characters actually unlocked greatly stifled how that game developed nevermind all the myriad of OSes that people discovered later and then re-tested in vanilla that would have worked then. For better or worse SFIV is a more complicated game than SFV is. It’s also worth noting that when SFIV updated it did so in one big “information dump” (+10 characters with SSFIV) rather than the drip feed approach that’s been taken with SFV. In terms of developing information about a game the latter approach makes it easier to “solve” things as when there’s only one new character at a time more people are working on stuff for and against that character rather than with dealing with 10 new characters at once where it’s an almost certaintly that a few of them will get lost in the shuffle.

i wasn’t saying sf4 was figured out. more like, we started to see where it was going

Thank you for the clarification. Disagree even more now. You can just look at the evolution tier lists in terms of who people thought was good in the game to see that people, quit frankly, didn’t seem to have an especially good handle on where the game was going. Like imagine taking 2015 knowledge, going back to 2009/early 2010 and entering a SFIV tournament. Who would you pick?

i don’t know why you’d disagree. i mean we knew by a year in that vortex was a major aspect of the game. looks like you’re trying to find fault no matter what.

by a year in we knew that vortex and option selects were a massive part of the meta. there’s really no way to deny this.

Yeah, man totally. Looking at the tier charts from that era I can’t even imagine what dealing with those Sagat, Ryu or Rufus vortexes was like. -_-
Also, if by vortex you mean Akuma then I guess you kind of have a point but every other character with a similar game plan seemed to still be in hibernation as of the end of year one.
I would also point out that the most IMO vortex centric character in the history SFIV was not even in the game until Super and even then it took a while to flesh Ibuki out.

You arent understanding. You want an argument, not understanding. By the time super came out we already knew the game was headed towards vortex(that doesnt mean everything was vortex yet. Hopefully you’re capable of nuanced thinking… Yes/No isnt enough. This is a grey area because we knew where it was going, keyword: GOING), most people were no longer seeing Sagat and Ryu as being the strongest. Akuma had a lot of it going by the time super came around, even ryu had pretty strong set play going for him(so it looks like you werent really aware of this, but hey keep telling me im wrong anyway, facts be damned, you decided you were right!), people were realizing that cammy was OP, Seth was ridiculous etc.

By the time super came out we knew where SF4 was headed. Its not even debatable. That doesnt mean we knew everything. But we knew where it was headed.

"I would also point out that the most IMO vortex centric character in the history SFIV was not even in the game until Super and even then it took a while to flesh Ibuki out"
Completely irrelevant. Im talking about when super came out, and we simply discovered that she fit the meta that we knew was there already because by the time vanilla was coming to close we already knew vortex was where the game was going, and by the time super came out a lot of it was developed. So my original point about SFV lacking in this area a year or so after is valid.

[DevilJin_01]

I don’t understand why a top Urien player would press st.hp at that range. Surely they’d press cr.mk to check low and stay + on block at the midrange.

They could do that but Vega can also easily whiff punish whiffed c.MK with slide. Vega’s s.MK also generally stuffs it.

fantastic but that means Vega is out of range for everything other than f.hp, slide and maybe st.mp. Your options are lesser all to work around whiff punishing his cr.mk? Fuck it, just dash in and close the distance, you have more options there.

Which if you condition him to not press those buttons for fear of whiffing then that makes it easier for you to dash in. Which of course Vega’s dash is really good.

Vega’s not a character you can really swing long buttons at a lot because he’s very mobile and can very easily make you whiff and be susceptible to dash ins and his own buttons. In this set vs RB’s Urien you’ll notice that RB rarely ever throws out s.HP or even c.MK. The Vega player generally keeps Claw on in the fight and just plays around Urien’s neutral rather than trying to bash buttons with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN7s2xTjBPQ

[RAW_Guts]

Learn to whiff punish

http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/4/8/8/0/4/1488043180638149.gif?1488043212

Nobody thinks of this because SFIV taught them fighting is best done on both knees like girly men.

[HNIC_Mike]

I think if your crush button allows full dash up combos or combo extensions that it needs to have some drawbacks.

Either that or the character needs to be built in a way that balances their ability to convert from anywhere off crush counter. Kinda like bison for example.

Also its a lot harder to whiff punish a move if it has variable frame data.

[crash_and_burn]

MRK: Monkuryuken

[Pertho]

You arent understanding. You want an argument, not understanding. By the time super came out we already knew the game was headed towards vortex, most people were no longer seeing Sagat and Ryu as being the strongest. Akuma had a lot of it going by the time super came around, even ryu had pretty strong set play going for him(so it looks like you werent really aware of this, but hey keep telling me im wrong anyway, facts be damned, you decided you were right!), people were realizing that cammy was OP, Seth was ridiculous etc.**

By the time super came out we knew where SF4 was headed. Its not even debatable. That doesnt mean we knew everything. But we knew where it was headed.**

"I would also point out that the most IMO vortex centric character in the history SFIV was not even in the game until Super and even then it took a while to flesh Ibuki out"
Completely irrelevant. Im talking about when super came out, and we simply discovered that she fit the meta that we knew was there already because by the time vanilla was coming to close we already knew vortex was where the game was going, and by the time super came out a lot of it was developed. So my original point about SFV lacking in this area a year or so after is valid.

Which is why a lot of character with strong footsies and spacing game continually dominated the game. Even after the nerfs to Akuma’s oki, he was still making life a pain in the ass for characters all of his other tools.

Fucking Xian won Evo off of the strenght of Gen’s footsies and we had an Evo finals well into life span of the series end in Rose vs Sagat.

SF4 got to do something for everybody. As much as people want to hate it for a lot of the shit it did badly (which was a lot) it lead to a lot of interesting gameplay.

Edit: my mistake, you are right. I forgot how Fuudo crushed an Evo with his strong Fei Long unblockables.

[Darklightjg1]

Im not gonna lie Nash is fun to play as and this is coming from a bison player…

I wonder what sorta changes hes gonna get in this patch…

None whatsoever. Still want to play him?

infil let everyone know “Nash is dead”. He’s def getting some buffs from S2.

It’s more about questioning his resolve if nothing happens to the character rather than actually believing they’ll do nothing. Like if nothing happens to your character and you gotta hold that for at least the rest of S2, is the character fun enough that you wouldn’t drop them?

I can’t put my chips down on a balance patch. I have to assume I’ll be working with what I have and just be pleasantly surprised if something good happens for my character.

[OceanMachine]

I’ve had more of my friends on SFIV than I have SFV the past couple days.

Games on it’s biggest dry streak yet, only 3 days to go until my ice queen arrives.

I have literally zero friends on USF4 since the release of SF5. Maybe one or two will try it every 3 months. All the other ones either only play SF5 or other non SF games.

[You]

Fuck ibuki i cannot believe this bitch is flying under the radar so much

[PVL_93_RU]

Sidenote but you can now change your Twitch username. Get hype