I agree with you about damage nerfs, thats why I said combo U1/U2 would only be legit IF he had the nerf. What I’m saying though is how the game system works, if Gief could combo into any of his SPD, it goes hand in hand that his U1 would be able to combo too. That would be broken. He would have to have his U1 changed or reduced damage which would take away the whole essence of Gief.
Gief zoning does make sense because grapplers technically are zone characters. You work your way in or keep them out with Gief’s footsies, then when you are in grab position you go for it. It doesn’t have to be so safe. There should be some sort of risk involved in having large damage grapples. Capcom has taken this into account since you know…the grapplers have high life and high damage output. Because it makes sense that they will take alot of damage trying to grab.
While there are zone characters that obviously zone better than Gief, that doesn’t mean that Gief cant be a zone character because he is also a grappler. Gief was never meant to be some hit confirm combo guy like he was before his cr.LK got nerfed.
But…this is sort of pointless because people have different views of what a grappler is and I think not being able to combo into a grab makes total sense.
Comparing to Guilty Gear doesn’t even convert over to SF because GG has some everyone in the game having craaazy combos to where alot of the time they aren’t even on the ground for them to get the grab. If grapplers couldn’t combo in those games their command grabs would have to do like half life in order to keep up with the amount of life they would be losing to peoples combos all day without ability to retaliate. In short…totally different game.
^The simple truth. SSF4 grapplers aside of Hakkan are done pretty well. Hakkan’s input overlaps and zero ability to escape pressure are too much of a problem. Even T.Hawk is fine, we can’t all be A tier.
guess i’m the only one who thinks grapplers are too powerful, specially ones like Able & Honda…the range on the heavy hitters grabs are way exaggerated, not to mention the damage
Well, speaking strictly to online play. Grapplers are only good for a scrubs dreamteam cheese tactic “Roll the stick over and over and throw” and a counter-pickers wet dream toward any character who doesn’t have a fireball (Dudley, Makoto, Fei) “Roll the stick over and over and throw… when they hit you so much as once.”
I don’t really want to outright shit on grapplers, but I can count on one hand how many times I’ve seen someone trying to actually learn the character and not someone who just think they’re able to win off the same shit over and over.
Fuerte, Abel, Makoto… seem more mixup then outright grappler. But their whole mixup game is based around fear of eating that throw and getting knocked down because of it, so I can’t really say much.
Barring Atomic Collider (which, as an anti-air grab is functionally the same as combo’ing Falling Sky with Abel), it’s a fucking blue beat, not a real combo. You can do it with any throw. Plus which, Tager is still awful, what are you looking at, Loke Test 2 tier lists?
Rachel get nerfed that bad? She was one of the top dogs in CT.
Any rate, Grapplers are still very good in this game. Gief is down right scary against most of the cast if you know how to use his OS well. Hakan when oiled up is rather good, but the problem is keeping him oiled. T-Hawk I think could be good in the right hands. I mean his normals have very good range, but the biggest problem I see with him is the lack of a “scary” OS game that Gief has. T.Hawk just lacks a good mobility move that isn’t super obvious.
Tager is God tier because his astral heat looks so awesome.
Anyway,
Zangief at least is built around having a zone of death right in front of him (where he can fgrab you), which means anyone approaching him desperately tries to stay out of this zone.
He is then equipped with zoning tools to punish them for this very act, why the heck do you think he has the head butt? Or the super fast jabs?
You teach them to jump about with the grabs and then zone them into submission with command normals and pokes.
As for ultras:
Except for a lucky focus attack you shouldn’t be able to land ultra 1 because your opponent will never just be standing there, they’ll be jumping out, gee I wish I had an ultra that caught people in the air…
I’ve always had this theory that capcom secretly hates grapplers, in the same way that gravity is a theory. I just don’t really understand what they were trying to do with the grapplers in SSF4. Hakan is an awesome character but his gimmicky nature made me abandon the thought of any real time with him. And while I really like gief the nerfs, his lousy second ultra and the mountain of work one needs to put into him turned me off from anything but casual albeit fun use. However I still really like T.Hawk and I don’t care how many times I get my ass kicked I enjoy using him and plan on sticking with him. I generally love grapplers in any fighting game and SF in no excpetion but why are they always garbage tier? (I’ve heard Gief was tops in some version of SF2 any truth to that?)
I think grapplers are fine in this game, here are the ones I have in mind when the word grappler is mentioned:
Traditional grapplers - Zangief, Hawk, and Hakan: Zangief is still very solid even with all the nerfs, his 50/50 game is scary and very dominating. T.Hawk and Hakan might be lower in ranks, but that is a problem most of the new super cast suffers from as they were not balanced as well as the old cast, so its not a grappler-related issue. Besides, both Hawk and Hakan are not completely horrible by any means, and need only a few key tweaks to become legit threats. All characters in this category naturally have inherent problems with fireball based characters, but smart use of them can get you around that.
Hybrid grapplers - El Fuerte and Abel: Regarding El Fuerte, any character who has two throw specials and two grab ultras is a grappler imo, even though he doesn’t have a traditional 360. As my main in both vanilla and super, I know that Fuerte is solid mid this time around and can be very tricky to deal with if played right. His U2 can be both a great offensive and defensive ultra that helps him a lot to become more competitive. Abel is also a hybrid grappler, he has traditional elements like a 360 in tornado throw, but also combo based attacks that round him out well to become a huge threat once close. Compared to traditional grapplers, characters in this category tend to fare a lot better against FB-based characters, but don’t dominate non-FB ones as strongly (there are some exceptions for sure).
Charge grapplers - E.Honda: Can’t think of anyone else to fit this category, and we all know how Honda is a force to be reckoned with in Super. he excels in trutling tactics like charge characters, but can also apply heavy pressure up close like traditional grapplers, which makes him strong in both offense and defense. In a game like super where charge characters seem to have a slight edge, a character in this category will naturally be very strong.
All the characters above have at least one grab ultra. Other characters that have grappler elements but don’t strike me as real grapplers are Makoto and Seth (neither has any sort of grab ultra). Makoto is a lot closer to rushdown characters and her command grab is more meant to setup combo based damage as it doesn’t do much damage by itself. Seth has too many tools to categorize him in one type, as the whole concept of him is to be versitile in many types of attacks at the expense of low health. So overall I think grapplers in general fare rather well in this game, they were just never meant to be as easy to learn as some other types of characters, so they do require dedication.
I use Alex in 3rd strike. Hawk in HDR. Fuerte in SF4. etc.
Grapplers have always felt easier to handle in non-SF games.
Not sure why they like making Grapplers fight such uphill battles all the time… It was a nice change in SF4 to see Gief on top.
Maybe Grapplers could one day be appreciated like shotos.