The SRK Science Thread 2.0

At the risk of agreeing with Cisco, let me get something off my chest.
Dawkins is a fraud (in his science-warrior incarnation) . Any video of Dawkins (as the avatar for his own ‘science’s’ war again religion), has no place in a discussion of science. However, apparently a discussion about why that is, does belong here. hahaa

The scientific method works by inductive reasoning. Thus, nothing in science can be held as absolute truth. If something is not supported by evidence, the scientific method does not give you license to put forth the inverse (negative assertion) as a hypothesis. This is because the assertion (negative or otherwise) is not supported by evidence and, of course, if such action is permissible, the scientific method disintegrates. There is no action in the name of science that can be taken in such case. The only thing science can do is to ignore it until it becomes scientifically relevant. Things that arent supported by evidence dont get to be shot down by science, they just get to be ignored. This is not a subtle nuance (though it can seem subtle due to the language often used). This gets at the heart of the scientific method. Listening to Dawkins in the interview, it is apparent (from his contradictions) that he is aware of this. Which doesnt make it any better. Stewart was on to something when he asked “…isnt it the job of a scientist to…”. He was getting at what it means to think like a classical scientist; which is to be open-minded and skeptical (the ‘skeptical’ part is redundant since an honestly open-minded person must be skeptical). He was challenging Dawkins’ brand of skepticism.

The reason for Dawkins’ crusade, is a backlash against religion. He did not hide his disdain for religion in that he sees such faith as the antithesis of science. He views the proliferation of religion as placing science as an institution in jeopardy (I believe religion is scapegoated for a lot of evils in the world, but this is besides the point). So in using science as a weapon, he will try to bash back the remaining vestiges of faith-based philosophy (when you are a hammer, everything you see must be a nail). By doing this in the name of science, he is recruiting popular opinion towards viewing science as a philosophy that is able to make [negative] determinations via a lack of evidence. This expansion of traditional science, is in direct opposition to its philosophical underpinning. And only leads to a misunderstanding of the scientific method, especially when he accepts being an avatar for scientific superiority. He accepts the role happily, because it is his bread and butter. Not because he is a champion of science. He champions its demise apparently.

As opposed to scientists (who are like all humans, choosing to believe or not to believe in a spectrum of possibilities based on available evidence), the scientific method is never wrong, as Dawkins agreed incorrectly to with Stewart (who was probably referencing Mario Livio-who commented on the human element). Inductive reasoning is safe-guarded from being wrong by its limitations regarding the assignment of truth, in fact this is its main philosophical criticism (Dawkins also apparently laments this limitation). However, the need to assign truth to things is a human impulse and is driven specifically by faith. Because of this, scientists (rather than science itself) are often wrong - with typical human flaws that lead to bias in analysis (this wraps back to the subject of indoctrination of popculture: Occham’s razor is often touted as a scientific principle despite being quite the opposite).

If you claim my issue lies in semantics let me mention my favorite part of the interview. Towards the end when Stewart got Dawkins to admit belief in something based on zero evidence: When he admitted that he believed in the existence of life on other planets and that even a billion other planets supporting life is a small estimate. On what is he basing his belief that such an event is highly likely? It certainly is not evidence. It is faith. Faith in what? Perhaps faith that this would shut up (or fan the flames of) religious people who think that God created them uniquely in his image (such as would be comforting to him). Dawkins wants to sit them on his science sword. He tempered the claim by admitting he could be wrong, but have you ever cornered a religious person and pinned them down on the existence of the possibility that they are wrong? Similar to Dawkins, they usually acknowledge it. So is it semantics? Is it I who is relying on semantics, or is it Dawkins? Who is the one selling merchandise on TV and to SRK members at the expense of what he claims to protect?

Dawkins’ crusade is prob not a winning battle. The fight of the religious vs the scientists is nothing new and will probably endure until the two meet somewhere in the middle in infinity. Dawkins is simply a new salesman inhabiting an old role. The history of the theory of the big bang gives some insight. The theory was put forth by a Belgian priest/astronomer/professor. The theory was lambasted by the scientific community as a creation story based on faith. In fact, the ‘big bang’ moniker was coined as a pejorative. Fast forward to today, and what do we have? The battle lines are still drawn, but the combatants have switched places. It is nothing more than punditry. This is Dawkins’ legacy.

no?

^^^ I actually hope Cisco paid attention to this, because it is a real argument.

I do like Dawkins. While I can appreciate his position on religion, I don’t particularly care for his crusader schtick in that regard. I’m more interested in what he has to say as an advocate for science, and I worry that he squanders much better opportunities to talk to the public about genes, selection, the history of evolution–his particular area of expertise–by thrusting religion into the spotlight. He could be a science communicator on the level of Carl Sagan or Neil deGrasse Tyson if not for this.

Faith starts with the given assumption that you exist and that you live in an objective reality that can be independently confirmed. While I can buy every other argument stating that science renders unnecessary the belief in things without evidence, this particular one is a sticking point. It is that point at which Dawkins would (rightly) assert that religious demonstrations based on this fact are predicated on the “God of the gaps” argument, but it’s zealous to take it further and marginalize the role that faith in itself plays in our understanding of the universe.

Shit, I have to get back to work. TO BE CONTINUED, I’M SURE

This is the science thread, not the religion thread. If you wanna talk about religion, create a religion thread (and then watch how fast it gets shut down).

Everything about quantum mechanics is fascinating to me, especially quantum entanglement and tunnelling. But the most interesting thing is that apparently the birth of the universe is connected to quantum laws (see Lawrence Krauss “A Universe From Nothing”). Something about the laws of QM allowing for a whole universe to spring from literally nothing, the same way that virtual particles pop in and out of existence.

The saddest thing is that Einstein rejected QM. How could someone as brilliant and with as much brain power as Einstein reject one of the most important scientific theories of the 20th century? Presumably he was still alive when the predictions of QM were proven to be accurate, and I can’t believe he still rejected it. I’ll have to read some more on this.

Becasue it was a bunch of statistical bullshit to him. And all these phenomenon made no sense, nor had any real applications then.

the fact that quantum entanglement, something he refereed to as “spooky”, existed, violated his theory, which had passed every test conceived, and contributed so much to other fields of science further validating the theory would be weird at best.

It’s easy to see why he didn’t like the idea. It’s a contradiction. It also didn’t help that at the time the science wasn’t as rationilized or applied as it is now.

I bet he just wanted more from the field to feel like it was a valid explanation.

I did some quick reading and Einstein didn’t actually reject the theory of Quantum Mechanics but rather thought that it was incomplete or missing something.
http://www.drchinese.com/David/Bell_Compact.pdf

So he basically was disagreeing with the interpretation of QM at the time, which is something that is still going on today. Physicists still disagree on how to understand QM with things like the Copenhagen interpretation or the Many Worlds interpretation. But this doesn’t mean that QM is inaccurate or wrong, quite the opposite. QM has been proven to be fantastically accurate at describing the nature of the small world, and experiments have agreed with every prediction of QM. The proof? The computer or smart phone you’re reading this with wouldn’t exist without QM.

religion?
Heisenberg as catalyst: When Bohr adn Einstein were having out their dueling thought experiemnt phase, Bohr was unable to extrapolate the uncertainty principle via quantum mech to a point where the experimenter’s actions did not perturb the outcome of the experiment he is attempting to merely observe. Thus challenging the concept of causality itself. Which seemed to become Bohr’s new pet philosphical pursuit at the time. hahaa Einstein simply acknowledged that using scientific arguments to refute causality is in itself a paradox.
His response: ‘Ef that; We might as well be talking about deities and dice.’

On the subject of Sagan, I’ve been reading Contact lately. The breadth of social, political, and philosophical issues he tackles in that book is quite impressive, and it never really feels too contrived. He even sneaks in a bit about cannabis decriminalization! Apropos of the current discussion, his tact regarding the intersection of religion and science is unparalleled. I think he does a great job of touching on the tendency toward condescension for secularists towards the religious, and why it’s better to be less aggressive towards religion in the promotion of science.

Oh yes i did. You should of paid attention to my great posts because it’s on the same context as his: Dawkins is a fraud. That’s just what it means. Furthermore, i think 90%+ of those famous “scientist” atheists are frauds especially that joke ass four horseman mainly because of arguments just like i posted earlier.

As with your post on faith, i disagree. The definition that is given to Faith -believing with out seeing/evidence- fits more for an atheist while Theism is belief because of seeing. The God of the gaps is a silly and shitty retort because theists don’t use God just because we don’t know what else to answer; theists answer “there is a god” because their is no conceivable way that the language, systems, and life can just happen with out being intended and with out energy to set it in it’s motion. Reality is either intended or accident, pick a side. saying that it is reasonable to think these realities can happen without a mind has no visible examples at all, therefore since this side has no observations in the first place is irrational. How can anybody claim this explanatory is more intelligent when there is no examples to help it?

For example, you and i leave some shitty broken down room and then return after a week or so. The moment you and i step in the door, to our surprise, the room is now fixed up… newly painted, furniture placed properly, the clock set and working… I go “someone came and here and did this”, you go “no… there is no evidence… we don’t know… no proof”… that example is the same reasoning why theists answer god so really the answer is still better farther from the word “assumption”.

If an atheist wants to punk around how arguing god is like arguing something fiction and how awesome science is being at odds with theism then the atheist should atleast be willing to show a visible example to make his argument conceivable. Refusing to do so shows that the atheist has no knowledge of science and shouldn’t be flinging that shit anymore because he’s sounding like some guy who goes “wohoo AMERICA” when he is from and living in Russia.

I find it odd that Atheism just goes straight to claim the “god answer” as unsatisfying or ridiculous yet can’t provide at least a common example to show that another way is conceivably possible. Fuck that hypocrisy. If you want a theist to realize his shit his fantasy or an assumption then why the fuck can’t you give any alternative examples to start the thought? And the atheist got the balls to point out assumptions.

Language, systems, intelligent life… these are common examples in life and none of that can be possible with out a mind generating that. Saying this answer is a mere assumption, a weak answer, or wrong with out showing a reason is what you call an irrational argument. The universe is a sophisticated reality yet at the same time is accessible. The fact that this universe has a language (mathematics) with systems from the stars to our own cells shows that general existence was not accidental. Saying that this Universe being the way it is and choosing to think this is accidental forces the atheist to also accept the possibility that books and websites can generate a language on it’s own.

Now i know that you, and the other atheists are currently nodding their head and trying to find sentences of errors to stray away from the main point… but think clearly, have you ever seen language, intelligent life, or all of those realities i mentioned just come into existence, i think not. I know the patterns of retort, the question you are prepared to swing is the “then who created god…” thing which is really dumb because if a god is created then it isn’t a god… i know the other line that will be shoot which is “the flying spaghetti moster” which is also dumb and shows that the atheist is an amateur debater.

I’m not talking about religion. Talking about religion is talking about the church, it’s life style with some apologetics…The whole “then which god” will indeed strike a religion debate so i’m not going there so i keep my arguments strict in science. I never understood how god can’t be a science discussion because the whole observation shit. I think it’s unfair that theistic reasoning is unacceptable in science because i think the truth is atheism shouldn’t be in a science thread because of the reasons i’ve stated above. It’s a degrade of science.In the first place there is a barely a count of atheists who have impacted science but when you look at science in it’s history the majority of it’s advancements came from theists. Yes that is fact. Read up on the writings of one of Marx’ dudes who traveled to china and questioned as to why science was not as influential their unlike in Europe or America. As documented by Marx’ guy; the reason why Science was not practiced in China was due to it being of christian roots.

Besides, that sonicbye guy poster posted in my great thread about this shit as to how arguing god is like arguing video games, seeing that he is just 5 years old in srk, he is unaware of my greatness this type of discussion… so i’m hoping he takes a swing now before i retire.

edit: go ahead and flag goodmorgan and whoever!

due to salt lmao.

*raises belt

fishjie would have done it better.

He also would’ve made sense.

Praise fishjie.

cisco stop polluting the science thread with your stupidity. the argument that god exists because the universe exists is a weak one, everyone who has had a basic high school education has already moved past this. you clearly don’t know what the god of the gaps fallacy even means, because that’s exactly why your argument is wrong. please go read the wikipedia entry, preferably a few dozen times cause i know you’re slow, and never post on SRK again. kthxbai

LMAO. typical atheism, can only make statements as a counter. It’s like teaching a 2nd grader that 2+2 = 4 and just getting “you’re wrong” regardless of showing sticks and helping him count. This clarifies my point that Atheism shouldn’t be in science threads because science is supposed to explain which an atheist doesn’t do so when gets smacked. It’s only a statement in reply of being just wrong. LMAO

God of the gaps is a stupid retort and old retort and it is you who doesn’t know jack shit about it, lastly there is nothing that can beat the statement i made on that. Come on mother fuckers, it’s been 10 long years of me kicking your asses in these type of arguments, real science arguments.

*raises championship belt.

I do believe fishjie won this match.

The People’s Champ!

I’m a fan of debates. In thesis’, science presentation, articles, reports, research papers, and reviews if person A provides an explanation and person B rejects it with out a reason as to why person A is wrong then technically person A wins. If you are required to write a paper as to why a certain politician, movement, event, science study is wrong and just have “he’s wrong”, “he doesn’t understand this subject”, then the paper is an automatic flunk. I do hope the debate continues with Fishjie or anybody providing a counter because the topic is interesting.

Oh, ok. Let me try this instead.

Fishjie, you’re wrong. You don’t understand this subject. I have no reasons but you’re still wrong.

Does fishjie win now?

You are the one saying that to him so it would depend on his reply towards your statement. If he replies and gives an explanation and all that is replied to him is “Fishjie, you are wrong” then he wins. Watch profesional debates on youtube and tell me if you see Dawkins, Craig, Cagan, Sam Harris, or Lennox just go “you’re wrong” as their reply to the opponent. They don’t. If the argument isn’t dismantled then it wins.

I’m just being fair.

So if fishjie were to reply to me with the same thing I just said (he wouldn’t, because he’s the champ), and I reply the same reply, then what? We have an infinite loop of “you is wrong”-ness? Does anyone win? Is it a tie? A tie is like kissing your sister, right? Does that mean we end up kissing our sisters? Or, preferrably, me kissing his?

I don’t want to pollute this thread with cisco’s religious garbage. his poor arguments have already been dismantled multiple times in the past, after which he giddily declares himself the winner (while probably slitting his wrists while crying himself to sleep at night because he has no friends), so there’s really no need to rehash them. if anything cisco can start a different religious thread where he can be ridiculed for his poor understanding of the english language, his own religion, and science.

To elaborate on what Jie is saying, it is life arguing from life’s point of view to say that if a thing is in a place, somebody had to put it there. It’s a biased assumption to say the least, especially considering that for all we know for certain, life–and therefore intelligence–seems to be an exceedingly rare phenomenon. There is no compelling reason to assume that It All Got Here because something intelligent had to do it, particularly given that everything observable to us seems to run on a consistent set of automatic processes.

There is no reason to contrive epicycles to explain the motions of the spheres when simpler, more evidence-based theories will yield more useful evidence–hence Newton, then Einstein, and so on. A prime mover, likewise, is precisely the sort of extraordinary, ungiven assumption that will not lead us on a productive path of inquiry into the workings of the universe. Practical, applicable revelation has never come by the proposition of an extraordinary, immeasurable phenomenon that ignores the possibility of a more ordinary (and more testable) explanation just waiting for us to go looking for it.

That’s the reason why i am still undefeated.

My main point that i was trying to show is Atheism has fucked science up. Science is an academic that helps give an understanding to our reality, and wtf kind of science do these peonic posters give? I know my post on that was too overpowered and caused allot of blood, tears, and piss coming out of guys like Purplebone and Goodmorgan because how the fuck can they counter that?

@Purplebunnic give it up and start following a real man of a poster who comes in threads like this and starts shoving his fist up mouths and foots up asses. I’ve shitted on both you and Fishjiz for 8+ years now so go on and delude yourselves but deep in your hearts i can see you fan my shit and fear my behemoth-ic rampage in discussions like this. I know i’ll never get a real counter other than “lol you’re dumb *sniff… you’re wrong *snif… flag *sniff” because atheism is an obstruction of knowledge than a benefit.

*Raises championship belt and leaves the thread.

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