…hold on.
this requires better detail.
so what exactly is sonic supposed to do when pit stops using arrows, uses them from a safe distance, starts keeping sonic out with d-tilts, etc…?
And I haven’t played brawl in about month, but care to explain how pit has terrible recovery?
There is no safe distance for Pit to use arrows against Sonic, unless Sonic is recovering. Seriously, Sonic can just go through them with >b, or running perfect shield them to close in on him.
Dtilts aren’t going to stop him, either. You can either running perfect shield them then punish, usmash over them (they have enough lag, SURPRISE!), use the invincibility of >b to eat through them and lead into a combo/tech chase, or just fsmash/stutter fsmash/2xstutter fsmash. You can also just hop over them.
Pit’s recovery is slow. Against Sonic, this is a terrible thing. Hit him horizontal once, then just wait for the wings, and hit him again. GGs, Pit. Note that this works only if Pit is slightly above the stage or lower. You can’t gimp anyone in Brawl with any character if they’re waaaaaay high. Seriously, all you have to do is hit him once those wings come out, and he’s done for. Multiple jumps don’t mean anything to characters like Sonic and ROB.
GOD DAMMIT…I was prepping a response to your post interim…but I’ll have to do it another time cause it fucking deleted everything I had typed…
Im totally confused on many things in this thread first of all, I agree with pit being easy for sonic you can gimp his recovery, cause you have the speed to punish it, you can even head bounce him to death(no joke).
SNAKE: Snake its a pain for sonic, as long as the snake understands that 90% of his projectiles become useless against sonic, and he just needs F-tilt, and U-tilt which have higher or equal priority to any of sonics moves and snake WILL win a clash fight.
DeDeDe: dedede vs sonic, if dedede plays defensively until he gets off an up tilt or grab( if you can’t chain grab back toss its 17% damage <-- holy shit), once sonic is off the edge Dedede’s back air is pretty amazing, other than that dedede should just stick to pokes like down A, and back air, and the like to prevent sonic from grabbing, or poking you
Wolf: yeah thats gay, B does a pretty good job of stopping all air approachs, forward smash dash attacks, and if you are in a close range dodge fight wolfs down B into foward tilt beats basically everything you have the only thing you can do with sonic is try to bait him into doing an attack then punishing him, but thats wolfs game and he is better at it, so as long as you are playing a good and paitent oppenent wolf will win, there is a reason why sonic is low tier.
NETPLAY: sonic is not that hard to play online, he may move fast but his movements and attacks are relatively simple, there are many far harder characters to play online with, plus the whole moving fast messes up ppls timing when they try to hit you, and since most of sonics moves stay out for a while you have some leeway. In my opinion sonic is good online.
Sonics really only advantage is his ground speed (he is not the fastest character in the air), after that he doesn’t have much most of his moves are vunerable on block, and filled with dangers.
Dash attack is overused but you can do some interesting things with it if you are playing characters who arn’t super short like pikachu or squital, by jumping with an attack right before you connect following up with, back air–> into grab, forward tilt, or up B to escape.
only 4 moves I love with sonic
F-tilt, nice range decent priority very fast, and safe.
After doing an up B if you hit someone with an attack you can do another up B.
His grab he does 3-4% damage every time you press A during the grab, considering that sonic doesn’t kill easly at low damages when you grab someone and they are at 120% you should be able to knock them up to a heafty 145% at least.
back air: it kills wow, high priority yay, slow start up, but has real nice range, good for attempting to beat ppl who zone you, * will not work against snake U-tilt, or against anything meta knight does.
and as an extra notes.
back toss near edge will kill at like 120% on some levels.
Use down air its not that bad, as long as your opponent is also in the air.
[quote=“noradseven, post:24, topic:43916”]
Im totally confused on many things in this thread first of all, I agree with pit being easy for sonic you can gimp his recovery, cause you have the speed to punish it, you can even head bounce him to death(no joke).
[/Quote]
That’s if pit reeeeally close to the stage and coming up from underneath does that seem practical…If he’s coming in from a greater height than the stage or equal to the stage then Pit’s attacks tend to outprioritize sonic’s. Bair might out reach but it’s still tricky
I covered the snake fight…thanks anyway
Sonic vs. Dedede isn’t really bad save for forward tilt out poking him on the ground, his fast back air like you said, and of course the grab. The grab being the biggest concern which I touched up on but that’s cool.
I covered the wolf match up…with all the stuff that’s been learned now about him…I don’t think Sonic deserves to be low tier but hey…what can you do?
Hell no…Sonic has a lot of tricks that and things that can really been screwed up by overall lag and lag spikes.
Holy shit…gimme that shit you’re smoking right now…NO MORE FOR YOU!
Only if they haven’t been shaking out of grabs like crazy
dunno about high priority…but it does have good reach.
Of course that’s depending upon the situation and how close you are to the edge. You also have to take into account once again that good players aren’t going to be DIing in the opposite direction…
In all honesty…I’m kinda annoyed at your post and at the fact that you seemed to not read a lot of the character matchups that were posted…oh well, time to fix your mistakes.
Consistently!? You’re kidding lol. Unless you’re talking about getting the off stage kills then maybe…but that’s NOT consistent. Too many factors come into play for you to say that. And I tested out a mario at 125% at the middle of FD and he BARELY died from it…and that’s WITHOUT DI. And I mentioned Killing most characters with upthrow at high percentages…DID YOU EVEN BOTHER READING!?
Fair tends to do it’s killing when off the screen after a spring pursuit, or an off the ledge kill…however it often times sends opponents in the opposite direction…probably because of DI. Don’t underestimate Uair, It’s a great tool for getting those vertical kills with spring pursuit. But I’ve already gone over this.
whoa whoa whoa! You put MK as POSSIBLY!? no…and Luigi as the hardest matchup for him is a definite no. Luigi does have a good amount of moves that will outprioritize sonic but it pales in comparison to that MK can do to him…Don’t even TRY to put them in the same league because it ain’t happening. As for GaW, that match up isn’t so bad as long as you aren’t running into matchsticks and downsmashs all day along with that fuckin turtle…you should be able to make that matchup even.
I covered wolf in the character match up…and perfect shielding a projectile is one thing but it’s fucking impractical to think that you can perfect shield everything. But hey if that’s your perogative then more power too you.
‘don’t let him gimp you’…thanks…we’ll keep that in mind…
IC’s are a threat as long as nana is still there just like you said but you make it sound as if they almost aren’t a factor in general…they have hammers, Sonic does not.
Congrats…but at a certain distance even after you forward b through the first arrow…the second arrow will come and stop you…again I covered this matchup. You’re also not taking into account that he doesn’t have to arrow again when he sees you coming in…Try perfect shielding angel ring. Also if you’re talking about gimping Pit, if the player is smart and he’s coming from the bottom of the stage He’ll know not to get hit…and you better not be talking about using homing attack as a means to gimp his up b because it’s unreliable. If pit is coming in from an upper angle then he can attack out it. Not to mention that Pit has faster mostly faster aerials than sonic that have high priority…What kind of pit’s have YOU been fighting?
Dtilt or usmash when he bites? Usmash is invincible on the ground? WTF? You and Noradseven need to both share what you 2 are puffing on. I can’t believe you just suggested to use that slow ass start up and laggy recovery move with a slim hit box to use on Wario’s bite. If ANY part of Sonic’s body touches that mouth while it’s open…He gets grabbed…PERIOD. Also I covered ways around the bite in the matchup section.
Gimp gimp gimp eh? On super armor frames when he’s coming up from under the stage? No thanks…and it sounds like you need to get hit with A,A,A combo/mixup more. And I’m beginning to see a pattern with your perfect shield answers…but hey…If you REEEEEALLY wanna try and perfect shield Ike all the time then be my guest!
Dedede is only able to compete with Sonic because of his CG. Without that, he’s nothing, seriously. Waddle Dees are slightly annoying, but really nothing bad.
Snake is Snake, but Sonic actually fares somewhat well against him. Just never stop the pressure, and perfect shield EVERYTHING EVER.
bzzzzt wrong. Sometimes while I’m fighting Metaknight…I imagine the player not even playing with his hands, he’s playing with his feet. I am not fucking kidding around with this shit. Bait the Up B? Ok…it’s been baited…now what? If you’re in midair and you dodged it, he’s safely floating his ass back to the stage. And MK can spam Downsmash quite fast…Just when you think he’s done Another one comes out before you can retaliate and you’re getting smacked. Another thing I want to point out is that If you’re above Metaknight trying to hit him with Dair, you’re in danger of having your ass scooped outside for an easy kill. MK will gladly switch places with your ass and put you out of stage if you’re anywhere within his attack arc.
It doesn’t set up for everything you’d ever want because the dthrow speed trap does give your opponent options…but of course I’m pretty sure I covered that
nice but it was already mentioned…did you bother reading?
explain?
I do that often myself at times I didn’t put that in general info…but I should make a note of it…though I generally don’t do a double dtilt
No…it does not. It has a lot of priority…but no. Against other high priority moves it either clashes or you get socked depending upon what the move is and who’s doing it, and where in the animation you’re getting hit. I’ve gotten hit plenty of times out of the beginning depending about who I was fighting and where I was.
Perish the thought…
Sometimes doing that can put you at a disadvantage…since you’re in the air for a long time without doing a down air, you can give the opponent time to adjust and prepare for where you’re going to be if they’re expecting it. Why don’t you just try jumping out of it instead of using the spring?
Dtilt I believe but Dsmash not so much…
Indeed it is…when you can hit it
wait…You ban a stage because you believe it’s your character’s worse stage?..O.o?..oh ho ho kay! Out of the stages that are currently not banned…I’d have to say Hanenbow is Sonic’s worst stage…not Battlefield. I can’t agree with you there.
.
a big fat fucking IF…you’re lucky. This is in no way guaranteed. And I already made mention of this is the MK matchup
.
No…Usmash is a HORRIBLE choice to try to punish something with. Again, it’s slow on start up and has lag at the end. And doesn’t have much range.
Considering the fact that Sonic’s only method of attack is using his own body as a weapon…trying not to get grabbed is damn near impossible. Oh and just to let you know…Forward smash from the Ice climbers will smash Forward B from Sonic’s nuts…Real talk.
You have to throw in the dash attack into your game…otherwise some of the fakes don’t mean shit without the threat.
Are you fucking kidding me!? Where’s XsamuraiX?
That’s if Dedede isn’t doing it properly and throwing in a few headbutts here and there.
That’s only if Pit is mindlessly just spamming arrows…which I covered…You don’t seem to be acknoledging that pit and hold the arrow and fuck up your timing on trying to perfect shield it…
Pit…does not have slow recovery, It ain’t that simple…I promise you
hey I am not on crack, hit UpB connect up air cause its easy to with an oppenent at the end of it and you can upB again seriously, I thought this was common knowledge.
and Zeal I agree with sonichuman more, even though he tends to overestimate how good sonic does in every match proably cause he is good with him.
And I think he means pits flight is slow, but ppl forget that sonic is not the fastest in the air either if you want that ZSS, sheik, and cpt. Falcon (wtf is he put bottom tier all the time). And you are right about the lack of good pit players its the same with Ike 90% of them are so terrible.
Plus I have started to ignore most tier lists, basically when I saw ppl putting DK as high and putting samus ans ZSS(my char) on the same tier and low, despite the fact ZSS kills consistently at 80-100%, and can combo without too much difficulty. I instantly distrust anyone who doesn’t have yoshi as bottom tier, yes I know how to abuse his egg, the reason why yoshi is bottom tier is he can’t do anything but dodge out of his block, which is a crippling weakness in brawl, combined with his game just being okay otherwise he is bottom tier.
The only reason why I know so much about sonic is I know 2 ppl that main him, one is as good as me, the other is worse. Thats actually why I know snake and metaknight, and marth are basically unwinable matchups, and the Ike matchup is difficult if the Ike uses his fast moves of back air, up air, up tilt, and AAA, down-tilt,forward-tilt mixup.
In my book anyone who can zone(at close range, aka swordsmen or other ppl with huge fast attack ranges)= bad matchup for sonic.
anyone who is fast in the air will be at least an even matchup, ZSS,sheik,cpt. falcon.
anyone whos attacks are faster and have more priory than sonic will have a good matchup too fortunately they are few in number.
everyone else will proably be an even matchup, or in sonics favor.
There are exceptions but thats basically how it goes.
And to confirm what sonichuman said, yeah sonic has difficulty killing a good DI’er thats why sonic vs lucario is a bad matchup for sonic, cause about every 50% you let lucario live he basically goes up a tier, if you play a good lucario player and at 200% its just stupid, you probably will not be able to hit them, the only thing keeping this from being outright impossible is that many of your moves clash with lucarios, allowing you to dodge out of the next one.
And once you learn the art of DIing you can survive even Ike hits utill about 110% where a few moves will start killing you(ignoring forward smash.)
lay…off…that…STUFF…SERIOUSLY. This has been common place since the first smash brothers. Once you use your up b you can’t get it back until either you land on the ground or get hit. You can’t get your spring back after doing an Uair.
I don’t overestimate…people underestimate him. If sonic has a hard time with a matchup I’m going to be real about it and not sugar coat it.
no we haven’t forgotten sonic isn’t the fastest in the air…but he does have his options depending upon the situation I.E. spring pursuit
I haven’t really played yoshi so I can’t confirm any of that.
Marth is not unwinable…in fact Snake isn’t unwinable either but I’ve already stated the many things you can do in that match up. They’re are also many different styles of playing MK so it’s going to be a person to person basis for that match up but generally you’re going to have a hard time.
That’s why if you’re going to play sonic and you end up with those matches you have to be mindful of what you can and can’t do. Not mentioning making sure that you’re not being predictable. I can’t really agree to this.
If you don’t grab that light ass pokemon and up throw him! Sonic vs. Lucario is NOT a bad matchup. Good sonic player can run circles around him if he knows what he’s doing.
hmmmm, Ill have to get my good sonic player friend to go up against my good lucario player friend, but, so far my friends lucario extremly patient game combined with knowing the exact range and priority of each move at each damage tends, to be painful. But I will have to try out this match to see, and my friend excepts grabs cause I use them way to much for my own good(cause thats how I try to beat lucario), just forward tilt, up smash(lol recover before the hitbox goes away), AAA and down air, are quite painful when playing as sonic, or anyone for that matter.
Hur hur hur I guess I was wrong about that double jump, must of been getting it all confused with some other glitch maybe that weird other glitch that can occur that makes you jump twice or something, someone did it to me one of those few times I went online and I was all wtf. Do you know forget I mentioned it *hides in shame.
And I do think you overestimate him cause, no matter how much ppl whine about matchups being so much worse it brawl, despite the fact that there are most charaters I actually think they arn’t as bad, we don’t have anything as bad as fox versus bowser, the closest is probably Dedede vs link possibly lucario :D. Sonic is about midish lowish tier in my opinion, and is defiantly a playable character.
And you keep saying not being predictable, sonic has a decent mix up game off his spinning dashes but other than that his mix ups are extremely limited, and unlike someone like Ike if the oppenent miss predicts just once they don’t regret it too much. Personally one of the charaters I always see underrated that surprises me is ganon he has one of the best mix up games around, and every hit hurts, plus with his over B if you have fast reflexes and time it right you can grab on roll wake up :D.
The biggest problem I have with sonic is his ground speed timing my moves just right to hit sonic can be a bit of a problem.
and about ppl breaking out of grabs, personally I don’t care, 90% of the time when someone breaks out of a grab they are so surprised if you immediately take action you can hit them or at least put them in a bad position and alot times just grab them again. Seriously with some charaters I intentionally let them break out of grab so that I can keep them under pressure, ps a valuable tool against spammy whores like pit.
Sonic being at least mid tier…I agree…but I think me and you should meet on the field of battle norad…what do you say?
I would love to play in real life not online or with shitty HDTV lag, I don’t think Im going to any big tourneys this year, but if you are ever in raleigh drop by NC state :D. We have a sonic player down here 2, but you will beat him he is not that great.
That sucks…oh well I suppose. I doubt I’ll be able to go to any tournies unless they’re in the immediate Richmond area.
1 thing I believe is because of Evo, 2nd is you need to get on IRC unless you have some of our screen names or somethin.
The match-ups here are flawed beyond belief. I agree with MK though, but ICs being Sonic’s worst match-up is very wrong. That match-up is even at best. Don’t even mention Summit because that stage is obviously banned. It’s no point arguing since nobody listens to cold hard facts anyway and the point of items being legal in SRK makes me wonder why your having such a hard time killing with Sonic. I’ll help out with MK later, you missed a few things.
Why hello troll, it’s great to know you are going to give some crappy information soon. I can’t wait to read it! And your “cold hard facts” were demolished since Evo was successful and the tournament went pretty much as Keits expected.
Learn to read more, nobody was talking about EVO, what does EVO have to do with the topic at hand. Also, for your information, Summit was banned from EVO too. You also don’t know what I thought of EVO in the first place so you can sit there and look like a idiot thinking your impressing someone on this topic.
I also know, something is seriously wrong if you say Sonic can’t kill consistently until 200%+ especially if SRK allows items (If people think that I said that to make fun of EVO or to talk bad about items, YOU ARE A MORON…) I’m looking at this at a SRK ruleset standpoint, not what Smashboards or whoever else says. I just feel that this thread should touch on a few more things, and like the OP said, he doesn’t have enough experience against ICs. So instead of just listening to just one opinion, why don’t we get multiple opinions and input from players for better analysis.
I think we are mostly discussing characters without the use of items because most characters use most items in the same manner, and it would be kinda silly to have the same thing said in the 30+ threads.
As far as items in tournies go ehhhh, I prefer no items, but items is still cool by me still a little O_o from the whole star rods and smash balls still being in, but overall having items probably evens up more matchups as for reasons stated above.
IC matchup is interesting if the IC player can keep his chars together you are going to lose, but if you can spilt them up you can sufficently “pwn” nana quite fast with up air up B up air, that is unless you are playing someone who has figured out nana’s control when separated. And my brother while he isn’t that great mains IC (and Zelda) and he has figured out mostly how to control nana when separated which is very annoying if you are expecting free hits on nana.
MK matchup: is bad cause a good MK player says “lol I can zone you in any direction lol”, and thats the gist of your problem right there. Best hope is coming from below or above but those moves are decently predictable and unfortunate punishable, either that or hoping the MK player doesn’t play it safe.
But I believe this has all been said before but im too lazy to read all the stuff above AGAIN.
Summit has nothing to do with my point.
Ice Climbers have an infinite grab and Sonic has a hard time dealing with that from what I know.
can you do the infinate grab? I can get a few reps of it then drop it. That is hard as shit, and its not char specific(but it is easy on bowser and Dedede) so once it starts getting abused it will be banned.
The reason why IC>Sonic when IC is together is that then they get 2 strikes that outrange sonic and deal good damage, and do nice knock back, and the 2 strikes helps cause you can be sloppier on your execution despite sonics speed, plus IC win on priority pretty much everywhere, its not the worst match in my opinion mainly if you can break them apart, but its pretty darn bad.
Infinite grabs won’t be banned, Dedede has one AND he has a chain grab. If it’s that hard, the infinite grab will stay and you’ll be going “Aw crap I’m being INFINITE grabbed”