The Power of Resets and General Oki Game

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter x Tekken
61

So not that I am focusing on safe jumps and meaties, but the way to test if something is meaty would be to set the dummy to jump and if they cannot it is meaty?

The good thing about Bryan is that he has very few legitimate enders and they all result in hard knockdowns, fulllscreen kds, or both (in fact I am hard pressed to find a quick to abuse). That is one of the reasons I suspect his oki game is strong, one is not given tools like that by accident, and some moves do not even make sense unless the sweep is beneficial…

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

62

I’d like to know the answer to testing meaty moves as well, as I really want to look deeper into Elena’s wake up game (possibly her secret strength?) so any tips would be most appreciated :slight_smile:

63

Well I can spend some time finally this morning on oki stuff, so if you like I can test things with both Bryan and Elena. Not too into her but I do like “bad” characters, and I gotta admit that is a cute face there.

Why do you think she might have oki potential?

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

64

I’m not so sure about Elena’s oki game. To have good oki, you need to have either good safe jumps, ambiguous cross-up options, great meaty options, good option selects, or an intimidating close-range threat (like a command throw).

Elena’s unlikely to have good safe jumps because of her floaty jump, and because she doesn’t have a way to exert real frame trap pressure besides cr. MP, which doesn’t really lead into anything. Her throw game is ok because her walkspeed is ok, but it’s not enough. If her cr. MP hit low then it would make for some good high-low pressure with her :f: :mk:, but it doesn’t :frowning: .

Again, because of the floaty jump, her crossup isn’t very good.

She could have some nice meaty setups (like possibly mallet smash, which leaves you at frame advantage), but even then because she’s got no follow-up pressure, the opponent can just block and wait for you to exhaust your frame advantage. If you hit with a meaty Mallet Smash and the opponent blocks, you can follow up with cr. MP, and maybe another one, but then?

It seems like her main mixup up potential at poke range derives from her low-hitting st. :lk: and her overhead :f: :mk: and :f: :mp:, but the former can’t be comboed off of (as far as I know), and the latter can (with difficulty), but it’s really slow to start up. Because of this the opponent just needs to down-back and try to react to each overhead as it comes. The slow one is easy to react to, and the fast one, while hard to react to, only deals 60 damage, which many opponents will happily take.

She might have some nice option selects to catch back-dashes, maybe involving Rhino Horn, but frankly, I don’t think most characters are so intimidated by Elena up close that they’d want to run away.

I love Elena, though, someone prove me wrong!

65

I’ll try my best :slight_smile: I feel there’s a lot of potential hiding in LK Lynx tail, but time will tell :wink:

66

The fact that she can combo into so many hard knockdowns (crHK, lynx tail, heavy mallet smash, slide etc) makes me think that Capcom intended her to be a character that specialises in post hard knockdowns shenanigans. Even though her low normals don’t provide much threat. The speed, recovery, cancellability & relative safety of Lynx tail means its a move that can’t be ignored.

Block Lynx tail and Elena’s safe and can either go high or low again, on hit you then have to deal with meaty high-low mixups involving crLK/crLP, another lynx tail, mallet smash, CADC or back dash to reset the situation. Her EX moves can’t be ignored either. She may not be an high damage character but I feel there’s a lot more to her, especially in this area. You can only block for so long :slight_smile:

67

I see the potential of lynx tail now. Looks terribly unsafe but you can cancel the handstand thing. Since you handstand anyway the notable tell for her unique overheads is gone. Then you can do different power lynx tails and /or repeated lights to mix things up like Christie’s mid/low special. Nasty way to go into hard knockdowns.

Well, let’s get to work. The more I see her the cuter she gets, so this should be fun.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

68

A recovery cancelled LK Lynx Tail is neutral on block (according to Ryan hunters frame data guesstimates) coupled with Elena’s awesome back dash means you don’t have to worry too much. Glad I’m winning you over to the Elena army, lol, can’t wait for your findings :slight_smile:

69

Well Emblem Lord and you may have cracked the oki code before I even got a chance at it:

So we established ease of hard knockdowns. Now on their wakeup you can do c.lks, on hit you can simply combo, on block you can go for mallet smash mid to either reset or hard kd again or lynx tail low into the aforementioned mixups involving that. Does not do a great deal of damage on its own but seems good in theory. As a Fuerte player, it gets me excited. Even so, I imagine it is weak to reversals.
Now in the corner you can do 300-500+ depending on meter off the overhead, so now we are talking.

As for backdashers, I am unable to confirm because I do not know how to, but both rhino and mallet smash appear to catch them rather easily. And both result in hard kds.

Now let me see if I can at least help in dealing with forward rolls and roll resets.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

70

It’s all coming together :slight_smile: really glad it’s not just me seeing Elena’s potential now. I guarantee you’ll be hooked by the end of you tie with her lol. You tried slide on reaction to roll? I know it has poor recovery but the distance travelled should make it safe, also rhino horn skips over opponents who are knocked down, should make them roll in the opposite direction confusing them and making it easier to open up. 1 more thing, with the distance and speed of rhino horn it’d be interesting to see how late you could leave it before it misses its cross up window.

71

Been experimenting, more successfull so far.

About the rhino making them roll in reverse, have you tested this besides against a forward rolling dummy in training? I think that the reason they reverse roll is that they are programmed to roll regardless, so they are pressing the opposite direction they should. If a player was to hold forward when you rhinoed they would not roll at all and get up normally: this is a roll reset. It can be just as effective in its own right, but shame.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

72

I’ve actually not tested it at all, i’m just throwing ideas out there until I get home and can test things myself. That roll reset sounds interesting though I wonder if Elena has any moves that can cause that to happen? Hmmm. Also do any of the rhino horns allow you to get back in front of an opponent trying to forward roll away from you because that would be pretty cool. Ps thanks again for looking into this stuff for me :slight_smile:

73

She does, it seems. Posting my day 1 findings in her thread now.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

74

Not sure if this is new or not but it would seem that you can get a guaranteed CR.mp if the other guy rolls. Not sure how to test it in training mode though. When the opponent rolls if you time it correctly the cr.mp will hit him while he is still in the crouching animation of the roll but after the roll has finished… What i did was i set dummy to roll then just swept him and tried to hit him. After a couple tries i saw that mp would hit the dummy while he was in a crouching animation.

75

Part of me wants that to be true, but really I hope it is not true or worse, character specific. Is it a guaranteed hit in your testing or just a meaty blockable?

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

76

Make sure to test it against a recording and not the dummy.

The training Dummy in Capcom games is notoriously disingenuous.

77

Yeah, about to test the recording doing it and me trying to roll and block.

Will have to tell me more, not seeing it.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

78

How would you even set that up? know you can record the dummy doing a sweep then cr.mp but unless you actually get the timing right on the mp it want work right. Anyway i hope you are able to do it. If need be i’ll post a vid later of what it should look like.

79

If this actually is legit tech why wold that be a bad thing? Don’t we want to render rolls as useless as possible?

80

Not really, making them a free c.mp takes away a lot of the game. Ideally they will be like wakeups in tekken, another option to keep in mind.

It should work in recording if I get the timing right the same it would work against a dummy and I timed it right. So ideally this is a perfectly timed c.mp or sweep that is unblockable because it hits before the player gets control of the character to block?

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2