Wish GGPO had the dreamcast ST version, why? it has the bonus stages n thats Gold 
here a cool vid courtesy of NKI, enjoy:
[media=youtube]VT_4_JKVyqU[/media]
What are the speeds like on Anniversary Edition on PS2? Completely out of whack? How accurate are the ST/Super characters when you use the arcade versions (hold start when selecting mode)? I play this occasionally and am wondering if itās worthless or not. I like being able to choose a level!
Ok so what exactly are the issues with emulation currently?
I gather there is potential for lag from USB. Is there a way round this? Iām thinking maybe we could wire an arcade stick to a DA-15 port and use the midi/gameport pinout and buy a couple of game port cards? Only problem is that I donāt think it has enough buttons as last time I checked, a whole load of pins were for power, leaving not many pins for actual button inputs.
Then I had an idea. What about wiring arcade stick controls/directions to a PS2 keyboard? (the old DIN style connector, not the console) I seem to think there was some limitation on the number of buttons that could be pressed at one time though. There may be other non-USB input devices we can hack up. Maybe if someone is good with software/programming they can do something with a serial port?
Then on to the emulation itself. I know people have tested this and it seems that the Qsound emulation adds 2 frames of lag in FBA/GGPO, and then you have the issue of syncing the game to your monitor. On setups Iāve played FBA on, Iāve only been able to get true 60 fps without judder or anything on the scrolling SUPER text is by using triple buffering in fullscreen mode, but Iāve read that triple buffering adds 3 frames of lag. If I disable triple buffering, I tended to get tearing or stutter. Things like fireballs that are meant to flicker on alternate frames, donāt and sometimes appear solid on and solid off for a few frames.
Iāve also heard that HDR classic has 2 or 3 frames of input lag over the CPS2 board. Could it be that the Xbox is using something like triple buffering to sync/prevent tearing and thatās what is causing the lag?
I think it might be possible to get the emulator to run at 60fps on a CRT monitor without tearing or stutter and without needing vsync or triple buffering in the emulator, by messing with the hsync and vsync on the monitor itself, but thatās something I never understood (how you can set positive or negative hsync and vsync and its effects)
http://martin.hinner.info/vga/timing.html
We can also use the arcadevga adapter to run games in their native resolutions to eliminate the need for upscaling (proving you can find a 15k monitor). At least for us Europeans, we should be able to take the VGA signal and send it to a scart socket without converting the signalā¦
So to get closer to perfect, I think we need:
-ArcadeVGA adapter for native resolution
-Some way to sync the video output with a CRT monitor without using Vsync or triple buffering in the emulator
-Alternative method of control to USB (though I donāt think USB lag is the biggest problem)
-Better Qsound emulation
As for the Qsound emulation, could it be more to do with how it syncs with the game, rather than suboptimal code or whatever?
With how many millions of instructions per second CPUs can get through these days, I donāt see why we cant have perfect emulation of a 18 year old game.
As for the OS, there is a program called nlite that lets you streamline Windows XP installs and remove a bunch of stuff from the install disc so it never even gets put on. I think you can get it down to about 18 processes at around 32-48MB RAM use.
From Mameās source
513 Known problems with this driver.
514
515 - Rasters are not correctly emulated in places where more than one split happens
516 per frame. A known place where this problem happens is during Shuma-Gorathās
517 Chaos Dimension super move in both MSH and MSHVSF. The screen should split into
518 around 6 or more strips and then scroll the gfx inside those strips up and down
519 alternatly (as one stip moves gfx up the next strip moves the gfx down).
520
521 - The network adapter used in Super Street Fighter II: The Tournament Battle is
522 not currently emulated though the ports it uses are setup in the memory map.
523
524 - Giga Wingās attract mode seems to lose sync with music. The problem seems to
525 happen due to gfx drawing slowing to much when screen colors fade out. This
526 problem could be due to the 68k being clocked at 11.8mhz when the hardware
527 has a 16mhz crystal on it. Various timing loops show 11.8 being the average
528 speed of the cpu and this does run true when comparing emulation and real
529 hardware when timing is not based on Vsync (ssf2 and ssf2t for example). It is
530 possible that what is slowing the cpu is read/write wait states when accessing
531 RAM areas. This would mean that in places where lots of opcodes are being used
532 in connetion with data registers only the code would end up running to slow.
533
534 - Giga Wingās sprites are 1 frame out when compared to background scrolling. See
535 the explanation above for the most likley cause of this problem. 536
537 - Progear slows down more than it should when compared to real hardware. See
538 the explanation above for the most likely cause of this problem.
539
540 - Some Hispanic/Brazil region sets have settings adjustable for a card dispenser.
541 Many times, this is defaulted to ON. Since MAME at this time does not emulate
542 this unique dispenser, you will get a āNO CARDā message flashing on the screen
543 for these sets unless you enter Service Mode and adjust CONFIGURATION > SYSTEM >
544 C. DISPENSER to OFF. An example of a game which does this is Street Fighter 3
545 Alpha.
546
These are the problems with mameās emulation not the emulation of FBA which has a lot more problems.
Yourāe right about the USB lag that is present on Windows 7 systems. Thereās a built in 8ms on all USB ports. There is a software patch that can reduce the delay to 1ms but it only seems to work on USB mice & keyboards only and not USB gamepad/arcadesticks. IRC, the software patch is also limited on Windows XP to just mice and keyboard support. Iāve also thought about the idea of going parallel port or PS/2 to eliminate the delay. In theory you probably could wire a stick with PS/2 support and achieve a lower input delay. The only problem with that route is, who has the time/resouces/skill to do that mod to their stick(s)? A modification such as that is not something the average player would delve into. The beauty of USB support, is everyone with a modern console stick can simply-just plug and play. Having to mod a stick with keyboard support is more akin to having to modify a stick to support Playstation 2 for the jamma to PS2 adapters. IMO, itās not practical to ask the entire scene or those newcomers who wish to enter the scene to have to do this modification in order to be able to play the game with their own hardware. Reference point - any ST major on supergun; you can literally count the number of people who actually have a PS2 or PS2 modded stick for those tournaments. Undoubtedly some TOās will actually modify their sticks for other non usb support (present company included), but it still does not solve the solution that most players prefer to play on their on own hardware.
Regarding emulation. My best advice would be to work with MAME. More specifically the modified versions of MAME (that have less input delay) created by the Shump community. If you have some time, I **HIGHLY **recommend that you try the unofficial versions (basically modified versions of ShumpMame). More specifically version 0.146u5. The input delay on that emulator compared to FBA on GGPO is night and day.Try these settings, Disable Vsync on your PCās graphics card, disable all 3D effects (triple buffering included) and turn all graphic enhancements to the āperformanceā side as opposed to āquality.ā In addition utilize āScanlines75x3ā and change the emulation speed to 98 or 99% on the Japanese Version of ST. All these settings should yield you a really good optimized experience with very minimal tearing, proper speed and low input delay. Iāve been meaning to test the input delay on these settings compared to the Arcade and Dreamcast versions. Early non-scientific input delay testing (aka side by side feel test) would place this very close to Dreamcast. Iām sure with more tinkering with settings and variables, the input delay may even be lower than Dreamcast.
Onto the CRT segment. CRT is obviously perfect input delay wise, however there are a few LCDs that are available in Europe that actually have 0 zero input delay as well. CRTs are obviously much harder to lug around and not as common as before. If the goal is to build up the ST scene, IMO trying to accommodate LCDs would probably be the best option long term. Most newer players, would not exactly be thrilled to have to buy (although cheap) bulk sized TV to just play 1 gameā¦and YES I know the hardcore group of ST guys will do itā¦but we should also think about the non-hardcore gamer as well. If you intend to ride it out with CRTs till the end of time, I would probably suggest picking up a CRT security monitor. Those are usually more compact and slim in design than the usual bulky sized CRT Tvsā¦however they do cost more.
Thanks for the reply man, thatās some great information regarding emulation and the custom MAME versions.
Where to start.
I had a vague recollection of changing some USB polling settings in XP years ago, and a quick google has refreshed my memory. The default poll rate was 125Hz (1000ms/125 cycles = 8ms per cycle), and you are absolutely correct that you can change the poll rate to 1000Hz, which makes it sample every 1ms. I wonder if consoles use similar polling rates (my guess it itās some kind of defacto standard), which would contribute to the lag felt in HDR and other fighting games over the arcade hardware.
So yeah, I was trying to get my head around what would be the best case scenario for tournament organisers wanting to run ST who donāt have access to arcade boards. My train of thought was that you could have this highly tweaked computer outputting the native resolution and using keyboard modded sticks in order to reduce latency and just offer it as a somewhat standard setup. Maybe the community could agree on a particular emulator, settings, display, sticks and other hardware in order to make a somewhat standardised MAME ST tournament setup so you just have these rigs that are very similar from event to event.
I fully appreciate people wanting to use their own sticks, especially when some people spend so much time and money modding or building them from scratch. Maybe if/when we get something decided on how to go about the setup with regards to how we work around USB input, that it would be something that serious modders could build support into their sticks for. Iām thinking that if you have direct button output for supergun use that it could be a simple case of making up the relevant cables to play via serial port or something, or maybe someone could even fabricate a basic PCB to go inside a stick that would give your stick keyboard output.
I had this same issue about making my supergun setup. It would be nice for people to use their own sticks (which they could do if they had Neo Geo output), but at the same time I donāt think people would be too dissapointed if you provided a couple of standard TE sticks to use since they are so common now, maybe 80% of players use those anyway. Not being able to use your own sticks/being forced to use the same hardware as the other player is a bit more authentic to the arcade experience too anyway.
I think the community really needs to figure out some kind of standards. Iāve played tournaments from arcade perfect, to what must have had 5 frames input lag (emulator + laggy LCD TV) and everything inbetween. Then throw in the ST stage specific speed, and that other ports/versions donāt have variable speed etc, itās a headache to say the least.
So, what would be the list of preference in terms of closest to arcade ST? Letās say the versions we have available are Dreamcast ST, HDR classic mode on 360, Xbox HSF2 etc?
Iām always glad to chime in on discussions such as this. Wish you could have attended this past Evo, as this very topic came up among a small group of us during dinner.
Regarding the USB poll rate, Iām sure someone will eventually create a software that allows the user to modify the rate to 1ms across all USB devices. Iāve searched the net for weeks to no avail trying to find a software patch; hopefully Windows 8 makes the process easier. Iām not entirely sure how consoles relate in terms of USB poll rates, but it wouldnāt surprise me if each console had a different poll rate.
For tournament organizers who donāt have access to an actual ST board, I would probably say Dreamcast, Classic Mode and MAME would probably be the best options. Your train of thought regarding a tweaked PC is also the first thing that came across my mind when I started experimenting with MAME. That idea could actually work if the community can do a little more testing to achieve the best settings. Currently with that aformentioned MAME version (0.146u5), Iām sure others would prefer/strive to lower the input delay even more; possibly even to match the actual ST board. If the community can do some leg work I believe it might be possible to find/modify an emulated version with specifications that could match the board almost identically.
The best stick solution via the supergun route would be to create an adapter (usb/keyboard/mouse support) that would allow the average player to utilize their own joystick. Undamnedās Consolized Supergun project that will support usb would seem to be the best option for USB. Iām not aware of anyone who has created a supergun with PS/2 (mice) or keyboard support; as that might even yield lower input delay results than USB. A possible solution for the supergun would be one that was created with PS/2 or keyboard support, combined with a PS/2/keyboard to USB adapter that could connect to a TE/Hori stick. I have a feeling there would be some input delay in that crazy process haha.
Back to point of sticks for supergun support. Yes an organizer could provide TE modded sticks for the event/tournament. From my personal experience, itās nearly impossible to provide sticks that will please everyone. Even utilizing TE sticks there are numerous variables and preferences among players. Some prefer Octo gate, LS-32, LS-56, JLW, etc. Believe me, Iāve tried to actually have as many sticks as possible to account for the player preferences (hence why I acquired 3 seperate panels for the cabinet used in TOL), but it just isnāt feasibleā¦plus itās quite expensive. Itās true that not being able to use your own stick is more akin to the arcade days, however in this current era of fighting games, you have an entire generation that is now accustomed to always being able to utilize whatever hardware they desire. The old die-hards wonāt mind no doubt, but if the overall goal is to grow the ST scene beyond the hardcore, we will have to be more flexible and receptive to the concerns and expectations of the potential newcomers.
I 100% agree with you that the community needs to work towards determining the best & viable option(s) available for this game. Without going to overly technicalā¦I would rank the following as closest to arcade:
1) Dreamcast
[LIST]
[]Pros:
[/LIST]
-With Dip Switches enabled, itās literally a 100% port, minus the half sec pause at beginning of the round.
-The most respected version of the game across the entire community (OGs, etc)
-Used DC console is cheap
-Toodles version of ST with dip switch enabled is a simple free download
[LIST]
[]Cons:
[/LIST]
-Stick hardwareā¦DC controller support is minimal, would need the Total Control Plus (PS2) adapter or Toodles multi-console mod chip for stick
-Itās semi-limited to CRT. Although DC supports VGA (which all modern LCDs have), it looks rather pixelated
2) Classic Mode (360 version only)
[LIST]
[]Pros:
[/LIST]
-Port of the Dreamcast version of ST on modern consoles
-Stick support is modernized, hardware is modernized to support LCDs or even CRTs
-Cheap download, cheap disc purchase
[LIST]
[]Cons:
[/LIST]
-Speed and timing is slightly different than DC ST, speed was coded slower
-No original classic backgrounds
-Not thoroughly tested this isnāt really a negative, more of an observation, few players have reported weird bug occurrences in only this version
3) MAME (Although ranked 3rd, has the potential to be the definitive #1 option)
[LIST]
[*]Pros:
[/LIST]
-USB support for any hardware (stick or pad that supports usb)
-With proper settings, can reproduce 99.99% version of the arcade boardā¦minus the input delay still a work in progress
-Can support LCD or VGA CRT
-Simple download
[LIST]
[*]Cons:
[/LIST]
-Setting up emulator may not be user-friendly for computer novices
-Itās not the āofficial gameā - would be an issue at particular events such as EVO, not unless received written permission
-Still in testing phase (input delay could still be improved, solidifying the best settings for the speed)
-Might be hard to standardize across all PCs
curious, what ābugsā did users report for HDR classic mode on 360?
Yes, the emulation issue where events have some kind of official vibe is looked down on as itās not legal. In my opinion the ethical side of this can die in a fire, since a company that makes their hardware purposely die after a few years of normal use is skanky, but that asideā¦
Before HDR was released, Iād have put it to you that Capcom wouldnāt care much since ST had run its course on multiple consoles and itās not like they are making new arcade boards anymore, but now they could use emulation as a possible scapegoat for loss of sales for HDR.
I think Dreamcast is one of the best options right now. The console is small and neat, itās cheap to buy, even the stock sticks are nice and the game can had on auction sites, or at worst, downloaded. The pause after the round announcement is weird. I wonder if thatās an issue with emulation, or if itās just loading? Also itās really nice that it has the training mode and those crazy turbo speeds. Iām really tempted to grab a DC myself now.
Where the stages on the DC port different speeds like on CPS2? And was the speed difference per round intentional, or a hardware limitation (maybe more/larger sprites caused some stages to run slower).
I havenāt had a whole lot of time playing on the CPS2 board compared to the years Iāve played HDR, but one thing I noticed is that some of the supers are really slow (like the animation on the Gief FAB, or sometimes Boxerās super seems to slow down a bit). One of the things that I donāt think we will be able to emulate accurately is the hardware limitations of the CPS2 board. The best way to descibe this is like when emulating an N64. On 1080 Snowboarding there is a point in the intro where the framerate drops due to the amount of action/graphics that is going on but when you emulate it, it runs 100% perfect without the characteristic hardware limitations. I wonder if that kind of thing is present in MAME/CPS2 emulation like if the supers do slow down due to CPU limitations or something, you may not get that same effect in emulation - not important for the majority of cases, but it can make a difference during Boxerās super as you know you can reversal out of it in certain situations.
Then again, Iām probably splitting hairs at this point.
I have been wanting to make what I could only describe as a modular supergun. Basically I would terminate the video cables and control cables in D-Sub connectors, so depending on the tournament you could swap out different video circuits no problem; for example you could have JAMMA>DE15 and then DE-15> Scart, DE-15>arcade monitor or even DE-15>component upscaler. You could even make use of splitters/video amps so you could have a head to head cab setup, with output to a hauppauge HD capture box and maybe even a normal TV far away for the commentators to watch or a projector. Taking your point with controls, terminating in a Dsub would then mean you can make various project boxes/converters (which is probably what you was thinking of anyway) and swap those out to suit USB sticks, supergun sticks or even pad players.
One good thing that will come of a PC running ArcadeVGA adapter is you can set it to emulate the CPS2 resolution, get a Y splitter cable and connect one end to a CRT, and the other end to one of those upscalers that people use for cabs with 31k monitors. Run a timer on the PC and take a photo on a high shutter speed, and then we now have a way to measure the lag of various JAMMA video converters/upscalers.
Here ya go: http://www.dontblowthis.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=360&highlight=classic+mode
Most tournaments where ST is run as a side event donāt seem to have issue with running an emulated version of the game, but itās always a good idea to get confirmation from the event organizer. The only strike against DC ST is the limited stick hardware options. In theory an organizer could just have modded TE sticks with Toodles (Kitty board?) that support Dreamcast functionality. However, that does not address/solve the issue of players wanting to utilize their own stick of choice/pad(s). By going this route, in essence your forcing players to: A) deal with the sticks provided or B) purchase and install the Toodles kit in order to utilize their preferred hardware. The latter option is asking quite abit from the average player. Ultimately, if the modified TE stick option is the chosen route of an tournament organizer, they may want to consider having a lower entrance fee to offset the limited hardware options. It would be difficult for the average player to justify spending +20 GBP/any currency on a tournament where they are uncomfortable/unfamiliar with the stick hardware.
The Dreamcast version is definitely an amazing port. For a tournament organizer, DC ST is a more viable option compared to arcade/supergun which is rather pricey and limited in availability. Iām not really sure why this version has that half second pause before each round.
As for the stage speeds in comparison to arcade STā¦thatās a really good question. In terms of the general speed of the game, Turbo 2 seems to mirror JPN Arcade T3. While Turbo 3 on DC is more akin to US Arcade T3.
That modular supergun sounds like a really good idea, especially since you hope to support numerous control and video options.
I just looked up the " ArcadeVGA" adapter (http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html). Is it really that much better than the standard VGA graphics card on a PC/laptop? I know the graphical elements are supposedly slightly better with that card, but does it do anything in terms of input delay? As for measuring Jamma video converters/upscalers, check out this site:
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ If you plan to upscaleā¦go with the XRGB series or the new Framemeister.
Thanks, going to check that scaler page.
I donāt think performance wise that arcadevga adapter will be any different. The reason why I wanted it is because it specialises in the low resolutions that arcade hardware runs at. It seems to be for MAME cabs mostly, so you could output ST in itās native resolution to a standard 15khz cab monitor.
I guess the software scaling in emulators use virtually zero time given the speed of CPUs these days and assume it would cause next to no additional lag, so how much you gain from using this card with games at their native resolution might be negligable, but it was a thought. Better to run the game at native resolution and have the natural scanlines rather than the computer/emulator upscaling and adding in scanlines I think.
I think with this card you could also bash together a VGA>RGB Scart cable to use the computer on an ordinary TV. I used to do that on S-video and it was good enough to navigate on and such, but with the RGB scart you get higher colour resolution which is a big plus, given that CRT TVs arenāt the clearest of displays.
Guys, what about using an ultimarc I-PAC2 ps/2 keyboard encoder to avoid the usb lag issue with the emulators? Is this a feasible solution?
-Jim
You could be on to something here. Certainly a lot cleaner solution than soldering stuff to keyboard traces.
If we can get PS/2 keyboard/joysticks working, then we might as well forget Windows altogether and boot into DOS and run MAME. That will eliminate any background disk access and overheads etc (Iām sure thatās what causes the occasional skipping when I play on GGPO)
Yes, I think that will be the best way to do it, in totality. Iām planning on modding a Hori RAP stick soon and am considering incorporating one of these I-PACs. Will still need to run Windows for GGPO, but this should still help the situation.
-Jim
Hey, if itās not much trouble and you are leaving the existing PCB in (kinda dual modding), could you maybe fix an LED to the button and do some lag testing?
Definitely. Will contact via PM on how to best accomplish this.
-Jim
Good news: theyāve updated M.A.M.E. so that it now compiles in any platform. So it shouldnāt be a problem to run it under Linux. Iāve got it done in a 64-bit distro, just fine. The bad nes is I got no idea how it runs since they have completely changed the ROM sets some time ago.
The new rom format is pretty simple actually: now each zip must contain all files needed. In the old format, you needed both ssf2.zip and ssf2t.zip to run ST. In the new format, the ssf2t.zip must contain both ssf2t.zip roms as well as the shared rom fiels from ssf2.zip. Thereās one program (which i forgot the name) that does that automatically.
They must have renamed something, then. Cos old parent ROMs still wonāt work.
Regarding the I-PAC2 ps/2, I asked the question about input lag on the MAMEWorld forums and only got one response:
I think its worth a shot. I will plan on installing one of them parallel to a PS360+ in my HRAP.
-Jim