Duck can also use the Blankaball technique to some extent, but this is best when combined with his S-power.
First of all sorry guys if my last post seemed arrogant or offensive to someone, it wasn’t my intention.
Just let me clarify a few points:
You have not understood what I meant about A+B, it is my fault because I have not explained well (sorry for my poor english grammar…), for A+B and the Yamazaki thing read at the bottom of the page.
Well, the point is that IF you diminish Tung’s pokes with the A+B/breakshot excuse I can say the same for nearly everything (many pokes, special and even some supers) in the game.
Removing A+B it’s true that Tung loses a good poke (but he has others) but it’s even more true that all the other characters without A+B have not so much things to counter his repetitive dash pressing: you must only use moves with better priority like extremely good pokes, dragon punches, supers, moves with start up invincibility and breakshots but except the last ones (which aren’t easy against Tung) all could be risky and not all the character have them (not to mention the need of meter of some…).
If the A+B are allowed, Tung’s one is and remains really good, better than many other.
I agree about the overheads, in fact immediatly in my first post I’ve said Tung pratically has no overheads so even banning the overhead chain it’s not a great loss except for the ground cross up mind game.
The last hit of the Ppower is irrelevant because it’s much prevedible, if the super become blocked outside corner you can even change plain before the last hit and punish.
Ok, probably you’re right, i haven’t tested enough.
BTW, let me say that it’s better to test these things offline…
Unreliable anti-air? IMO it’s one of the best anti-air of the game only for damage, start up invincibility, huge collision box, can’t be air blocked and even when it does only 25% damage is much better than every dragon punch, and note you must simply activate it late to prevent the problems you listed.
Obviously i’m talking about “dashing under jumpers and attack from behind” when the opponent uses low jumps, which is impossible with Franco. Personally i high jump mainly when I want to use a air chain.
Sincerely, there’s no need to repeat the A+B thing at every quote because if i’m making a list of options obviously i’ll put in even the A+B, then if it will be banned simply you don’t use it… and with regard to security, I agree only for Kim, Rick and Franco (who in fact are ranked much higher than Tung).
Chon-Shu is very good but without P-power doesn’t so much greater damage and his pokes are very good but can’t use them effectively in dash like Tung and that’s really important because they haven’t a good range. Sokaku is slow, he hasn’t high priority moves or pokes, the 90% of his game is based on the “TAP A move” which is a good move but needs you to be at least near the opponent (where Tung do his best). Using that move from far it’s not that usefull (and in some cases a suicide) because you can annul it with a fireball and if a character don’t have a fireball can change plain, wait “the ghost” until it will be near him and than use a plainshift B attack to pass under the ghost’attack (when Sokaku user press D).
In this kind of list above Sokaku i would put Krauser for sure.
So don’t say Tung can do nothing, btw read below
No, excuse me for not being clear, I’m NOT talking about tick-throws, simply OR you use the fast combo OR the empty jump fallowed by a throw. Trust me, for the opponent it’s really hard to predict which of those 2 the Tung user will use (from a low jump), more than like other character, I encourage you to try it in match.
(and btw, I knew about the throw-invincibilty thing before this thread, simply i didn’t the exact number of frames before Josh’s post but this is true for everyone here…)
No, I meant the opposite of what you wrote, it’s beacuse you continue to use the breakshot excuse to diminish Tung’s attack like it would affects only him, it affects EVERY MOVE on the last hit. Really dude, look in your summary post on Tung how often you say it.
I agree and let me repeat i don’t want change your way of thinking and neither start a flame. I’m not interested in defending Tung more than I have already done, simply i’ve enter the discussion because everyone has been able to say what are Tung’s weaknesses but nobody pointed out what are his strengths, seriously, before me who has talked about his pokes? Nearly nobody.
@Josh: First, I divide A+B in 3 categories: those that works well as anti-air, those that works well against frontal attacks, and those that can do well both.
Unfortunately I never played GG much so I do not know what you mean. With banning A+B I don’t mean the game is totally ruined, but something like much more unbalanced, monotonous and first of all scrubs friendly.
Reading again “outside combos I would ban them all” I have understood that it is not very clear what i meant so let me rephrase in “using an A+B and equivalents in chain as the FIRST HIT against the opponent should be banned”. This it would be allowed using Yamazaki’s f+A,C in combos but it wouldn’t be allowed to immediately cancel f+A with C, resulting a single hit as a terrible A+B which make shift the opponent). using this thing, Yama has a dominant corner traps when the opponent is in corner.
It’s all true what you say about low normals and those kind of jumps but not all characters have good ones and those who have must input perfectly while or a double collision will happen.
And even assuming that the A + B does not affect adversely on jumps and the ground game, do you like anyone can stop a lot of moves only pressing 2 buttons? :lame:
IMO it drastically kill the fun and there’s no more need to study all the weakness and strengths of all the characters.
The A+B move in older fatal fury games was much better, it could not be executed if the opponent does not attacked and first of all it was difficult and risky.
I agree the infinities shouldn’t be banned (At most only Bob’s).
@Dark Geese: Thank you for compliments and for the good rep
ABs are quite beatable. No need to ban those.
As for the infinites- we’ll have to agree to disagree. I won’t use them ever though.
Chonshu does have some difficulty with Tung, but despite that being one of Tung’s better matches- he still loses it half the time. You rarely see Chonshu’s land their P-Powers in high-level play though except as a counter to something slow done at the wrong time. Chonshu’s best use of meter is by far breakshots.
Soh, you really would hate Guilty Gear then. 
Most characters’ 6P attacks function much like the A+B’s in RB2, and are just as easy to use on reaction; they can start huge chain combos on grounded opponents or huge juggle combos as anti-airs. They generally do MUCH more damage than DP’s in that game and are many times safer.
The thing with the A+B’s is that besides the weaknesses I mentioned, they usually have terrible recovery when whiffed. If you get overly predictable and the opponent jumps, he will be able to land a combo much more powerful than whatever you could do from the A+B. Hence, the risk/reward for random A+B’s is decidedly not in your favor.
Meh, just my opinion. Thanks for the helpful input here, and keep up the work on the vids! =)
Dark Geese: You can often throw the opponent after blocking a jumping A/B, but not a C. Even the As & Bs might be safe if they hit extremely deep.
-Josh
However with that said…some are useful as Anti Airs even…I use Krausers A+B as a quick AA when all else fails and they are right on me.
CHonrei’s AB is mostly useless, but it’s comboable
Cheng’s is pretty useful for what it’s supposed to do, and can be comboed into any of his usual specials.
Hon-Fu’s is great as a long ranged poke, but not really a staple of his gameplan, since he’s mostly about pure pressuring.
I think that one of the main reasons why I don’t use the :snka:+:snkb: is because the chars I mainly use (Franco, Mary) have somewhat poor :snka:+:snkb:'s.
It’s also something that’s generally used in a defensive position, and the rare times when I’m in that situation (I’m one madly aggressive bastard :lol:) I’ll tend to either evade or slip in a quick attack to disrupt their flow, and then escape. And also just out of habit (same reason I generally don’t breakshot).
And there’s also the fact that most chars :snka:+:snkb:'s aren’t really anything to write home about (Franco, Mary, Chonshu, Chonrei, etc.) and / or have a better option to use in that situation. Krauser’s :snka:+:snkb: is a stand out for being an exceptional one because not only because it’s decently fast and has great priority (as some of you may have heard me go :wtf: in the commentary videos when it beat Rick’s Hellion clean on multiple occassions) but because covers angles that he can’t easily deal with otherwise (specifically hops around face-level).
But, at least for me, Krauser’s is the one of the exceptions to the rule. And while it’s a nuisance (God 2.0 loves that thing), I just alter my style to suit it just like I would adapt to someone who has a good anti-air, because that’s essentially all it is.
Besides, it’s not as though it didn’t exist before RB2. It actually started way back on Fatal Fury 3. So that’s 3 games (4 if you count Dominated Mind) that it existed in. Granted, the motion was different in the earlier games, but it was just as easy and the effects were the same. If anything, they were toned down a lot in the later titles (I don’t recall ever beating such an attack on FF3), especially since you couldn’t use it as a breakshot / just frame anymore as you could in RB1.
If it was some sort of “wonder-move,” then I’d encounter / use it a lot more than I do. But, if it was that broken / explotiable, then I probably wouldn’t be into RB2 as much as I am.
Interesting Josh…hmmm gotta play with that… Keep the discussions fellas…I’m enjoying it…
For people who don’t know, the A+B move I was talking about in the earlier FF games can be done pressing :l: , :r: + :snka: only from the blocking position and it exists since Fatal Fury 2.
Sure, it got toned down in RB2 but still remain an usefull move in many many situation (depending from characters)
No problem, more vids will come before the end of the month.
Yeah those moves are hella buff…in Fatal Fury 2/Special certainly…High level Fatal Fury Special YOU GOTTA USE IT…If they arent using it in FFSP then IMHO its not high level play… CPU on RB2 abuses the fuck out of these moves… And yes they are very very useful as said…with Krauser vs. Hon-Fu for example its hard for Krauser to do ANYTHING vs. Hon Fu because he eats one of those everytime he flinches… :wtf:
And yeah they dont have the high invincibility like they do in 2/Special to totally “dodge” but yeah they still are buff.
cpu hon (i only play lvl8, like most of you i presume) abuses his A+B too damn often (and his AA as well). like some other characters in this game.
also i wouldn’t go as far as too ban A+B, but the move is gay as hell, agreed 100%. why? cause the game already has way too damn many defensive abilities. too scrub friendly. you can use the backplane, you can breakshot AND you can A+B (not even mentioning aa’s or other things). its too much. the game would haven been far better IF instead of the defensive A+B you got something to mix your game up more for offense. like an overhead for everybody in the same manner as SF3 and MOTW A+B where everybody uses a hopping overhead (cept gato). just my 2 cents.
also even they don’t have the same power and priorities as FFS and other FF games A+B moves, in RB2 you don’t even need to be in a defensive position to do them. juts pressing A+B. in other FF games you couldnt do them unless your being attacked and are in a blocking position (kinda like how hon fus HCF+C move from RB2 worked in FF3). which makes it a bit cheap. for instance, far reaching A+B’s like hon fus, andys and joe’s can hit you out of your pokes with them, and in joe and andy’s case follow them shit up with a special move to boot.
This game is not about block and punish moral-style - a lot of moves are safe or give frame adv on block, RB series is more about knowing your defense and abare-style defense. Those AB’s you mentioned have long startup- so they’re not something you can just mash out.
Moral is taking the opportunities you’re given, abare is more trying to make your opportunities. Not the exact terms, but a good approximation.
Defensive = scruby? :wtf:
Not to change the subject, but do the mvs version of this game and Real Bout Special not have a pause option? I’m playing this on my psp, and I can’t pause the game, not matter what settings I use, except by going to the mvpsp option menu. Does the cd version of these 2 games have a pause feature (and a “practice mode” would REALLY help)? I’ve seen some awesome non-special move combos that run 6-8 hits and look sweet, such as one combo Joe does that’s just kicks, ending in a low, middle, then high roundhouse that knocks down, or Terry’s combo where he does alternating uppercuts to the stomach for 5 hits. Unfortunately, the cpu won’t just sit there and let me try out button combinations without a fight.
The idea of banning a normal move is absurd, and it’s not gonna fly besides a small click of dudes here. Just outputting my honest opinion. Anytime you play someone new, that rule will be broken even if somehow it was agreed upon. It’s just like banning throws back in the days. No matter how people didn’t want it, there’s that one dude who insisted on throws, and it’ll happen here too.
agreed…
and people wonder why a large part of the competitive scene doesn’t take these games seriously…
Agreed entirely, I don’t even know why we’re discussing this.
Infinites/glitches is one thing, but a normal move?
Interesting, we seem to have the opposite opinion on what scrub friendly is. To me, a game where you can substitute clever play with fancy execution is scrub friendly, to you guys it apparently is scrub friendly if you can substitute execution with clever play.
Anyway, what Soh was referring to with his A+B talk was moves that use the same frames of animations as the A+B moves, but appear as follow-ups in kara-cancellable combo strings. I thought there would be no difference, but I was wrong.
I tested Yamazaki’s A+B for this, because I feel that people overestimate that move. Sure enough, his normal A+B kept trading hits with a lot of moves unless timed very presicely.
But then, I tried to use his :snkb: :snkc: combo, by karaing the kick into the A+B animation quickly. So far nothing has beaten it yet. It has beat all normal highs I have thrown at it, it has even beat the Sky of Fire. Interesting for sure. The move seems to have full upper body invincibility through the entire animation when performed like this.
Rhio2k
The combo you mentioned, as well as several others, is listed in my Joe guide. Go to the first page of this thread to find a link to it.
That is presicely why you cannot rely on it. In a heated match you will not be able to stop and think when to do a move when you are under attack. Low jump attacks must be predicted, and choosing when to use an anti air is rarely an option you have.
The main use of this move for me is as a breakshot. Considering the fast startup and high invincibility, the move is a very good breakshot move. In addition, it can add some extra damage if you manage to land a C or meditation okiedokie.
thats why yamazaki really RAPES on 1 plane bg’s. ive used this technique since 98. as soon as im in the red, and im being attacked from a distance by good pokes i beat them with this, then spower, pursuit. this shit really fucks them up. doing it like 3 times will kill your opponent. and the priority you have pretty much beats almost anything and everything. too bad his B, df+C doesnt have the same priority. otherwise he would have really been overpowered. not to mention, if his command grab was a NORMAL motion like HC F or B and his snake cancel combos where as easy as in kof97. doesnt matter thoughy, as he already rapes. i just hate fighting those short bastards like mai, andy, chons and tung with him.
Yes, small characters are usually his worst matchups IMO. Generally, Yamazaki’s long range moves have a small area of coverage, so they are less useful against characters that have small hitboxes.
The game changes quite a bit on 1 plane backgrounds. Characters like Yama, Krauser, Chonrei, Cheng, and Billy definately become stronger on these stages.