2621

Hey all. I’m on the verge of making the upgrade to HD and as a hardcore gamer and fighting game enthusiast I want the best bang for my buck. I’m looking at the Sharp LC-26SB27UT (http://www.sharpusa.com/ForHome/HomeEntertainment/LCDTVs/LC26SB27UT.aspx) but I cannot run any calibration tests for myself as I do not own any version of GH or Rock Band, and this TV can only be bought online. The systems I want to connect to it are PS3, PS2 and Wii and the fighting games I play are SF (duh) Guilty Gear, CvS2, TvC and a little BlazBlue. So can anyone familiar with this TV give me their opinion on it in terms of performance for gaming on the consoles I listed? Or if not let me know what kinds of 26’’ TVs I can look into? I say 26’’ because I’m on a tight budget and can’t afford anything higher. Thanks.

2622

Hi folks,

I’m new here, since I’m not that big on fighters (mostly the 3 Rs - Retro, Racin’, and Rhythm.) However, I became obsessed with input lag when looking to finally move from SD to HD. I’ve actually read all 2,627 posts in this thread, and have some info to add that I hope will be useful:

1. Identifying the panel type in your LG LH20/LH30 TV

Look in the center vent on the back of the TV. You should be able to see a sticker on the panel that says either “AU Optronics” or “LG” on it. LG is the one you want for low lag.

I’ve seen at least one report of someone getting an LH20 with the AUO panel, so I guess it suffers from the same “panel lottery” as the LH30.

I posted a detailed writeup of my lag tests on a 37LH20 over here on AVSForum. Summary: less than 2 frames of lag for all HD inputs and resolutions, less than 3 for SD 480i.

2. DON’T use the optical audio output on the TV

In a previous post there are some disparaging remarks about using old-school stereo RCA jacks for audio. WRONG. It’s often better to use these than the optical output on the TV. The TV audio is usually delayed to avoid lip-sync problems with the lagged video. Sometimes it lags even more than the video. This isn’t a huge problem for fighters, but it blows for music games.

Use the RCA jacks on the console, not the TV if it has them. For XBox 360 with HDMI, you can get an audio-only dongle that doesn’t cover the HDMI port.

Also note that using Dolby Digital causes audio lag, sometimes quite a bit depending on your audio system. If you can live without 5.1 audio, disable it, or again, use the stereo RCA outputs.

Unlike video lag, you can completely eliminate audio lag, so it’s well worth taking the time to figure it out.

3. Fixing washed-out video when using VGA input

There were some complaints about the video looking gray / washed out when using VGA vs HDMI. There are two things you can do to address this:

  • If the TV has a black level setting, make sure it is on “Low” instead of “High”
  • For XBox 360, change the “Reference Level” display setting to “Expanded” instead of “Standard”

Either or both of these will deepen the blacks and improve contrast.

4. New models for 2010

Results are starting to come in for some of this year’s models, and they are not encouraging. On the whole, Samsungs don’t seem to have improved much, and Panasonic has gotten worse (at least on the L32U22 vs last year’s L32X1 and S1.)

5. A better stopwatch test

There is a timer app called SMTT that lets you make very precise lag comparisons between two monitors – almost down to the millisecond. It eliminates several inaccuracies of other timer tests: timer errors due to vsync, output delay between video ports, and current scan position on the screen. It’s harder to use than the typical single timer tests, but the results are remarkably accurate and consistent.

There’s info about SMTT in the first post, and discussion and test results in later posts of the current AVSForum thread about input lag: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1131464

I’ve also got some suggestions for making in-game 60fps camera tests easier, and how to allow anyone with a plain old standard-def MiniDV camcorder to perform them, but I will save these for a separate post.

I hope you find this helpful.

2623

Great post. However I don’t have a “center vent” on the back of my 32LH20. I have a top vent that spans the width of the back at the top, and two lower vents in the bottom corners of the TV. I also can’t see any stickers in the vents.

2624

Ah, apparently the center-bottom vent is only on the 37" models. However, this post over at AVS shows where someone found it on their 32LH30:

2625

There’s nothing there on my 32LH20. However it is from late 2009 so I would not be surprised if it were the AUO panel. In any case, Beatles Rock Band says it’s under 2 frames of lag.

2626

Nice post. I’m looking forward to suggestions for the 60fps camera test. If I could use a miniDV camcorder, I’d probably run a bunch of tests this weekend.

2627

My 37LH20 was made in October 2009, and has an LG panel.

If you’re getting under 2 frames with an RB auto-calibration test, you most likely have the LG panel, since that’s about what I’ve measured on mine. The AUO panel would be more like 3-4 frames.

If you have a camera with macro mode, or good eyesight and squint like crazy, you can probably ID it by pixel structure. This thread on the Euro AVForum site has great closeup pics of most panel types.

The LG S-IPS panel looks like this:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/attachments/lcd-televisions/145981d1257187025-lcd-matrices-differences-what-models-placed-pfilips-42pfl7404-8404_s-ips.jpg

There are several variants of AUO VA panels, and I’m not sure which one LG has been using. This post shows what they look like.

Also, if you press on the screen with your finger, the AUO VA panel will show a bright white flash around it, while the LG S-IPS just barely turns white right where you are pressing on it.

2628

The new 32" LG’s are out. I’m going to try and pick up an LG 32LD350 this weekend. Hopefully it’ll test well and I won’t have to return it.

2629

Guide to Ghetto 60fps Recording

To do the in-game input lag tests described in this thread, you need a video camera that shoots 60 frames per second (720p HD, for instance.) If you don’t have a fancy HD camcorder, it is possible to get by with pretty much any standard-def MiniDV camera. Here’s how to do it…

Introduction

Standard-def MiniDV camcorders store 30 frames per second, but that’s not what they are actually recording. It’s really 60 fields per second. Pairs of fields are weaved together (interlaced) to form the 30 frames.

If you can separate out the individual fields and treat them as whole frames, you effectively have 60 frames/sec video. This is what we’re going to do!

We’ll be using a great video scripting engine called AVISynth, which can manipulate video in all sorts of ways. AVISynth scripts are plain-text files with a .avs extension. They will open in VirtualDub, and some other apps, as if they were video files themselves.

VirtualDub, as described elsewhere, is a great tool for seeking around frame-by-frame in a video file, as well as trimming, converting, extracting still images, etc. It’s just what you need when counting frames for input lag.

Software needed:

VirtualDub
http://www.virtualdub.org/

AVISynth
http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Main_Page

You may also need to install a DV codec to allow VirtualDub to open AVI files created with a MiniDV camera.
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/panasonic_dv_codec.htm

I’d recommend using Windows XP. Using Vista or 7, especially the 64-bit versions, will probably require extra steps to get everything working.

Procedure

  1. Shoot your video

Using your camcorder, record your controller button presses and the on-screen responses, as described in the other posts. Zoom in as much as possible; the resolution of individual fields is pretty low, so you need to capture as much detail as you can.

  1. Transfer the camcorder video to an AVI file on your PC

The exact method will vary – firewire, analog capture card, etc. Firewire (1394a) is usually best, as you get exactly what was recorded on the camera.

  1. Make sure the AVI file opens in VirtualDub

If the file opens properly in VirtualDub, then AVISynth will also be able to read it. (You may need to install the VfW-compatible Panasonic DV codec listed above.) DO NOT CONTINUE until you have a file that will open in VirtualDub.

If you seek around in the file in VirtualDub, frames with a lot of motion in them should have a jagged lines in them, like teeth on a comb. This is because the objects moved between the times when the individual fields were recorded, which are now interlaced together. If you don’t see these lines, you may not have the raw video from the camera, and you may need to find an alternate way of transferring video from the camera to the PC.

  1. Create AVISynth Script

Now that we know we have a proper video file, we can create an AVISynth script to process it. Here is a simple two-line script that will bob deinterlace a video clip:


AVISource("yourfile.avi")
Bob()

It’s called “bob” deinterlacing because it tries to compensate for a small vertical jump (or “bobbing”) between fields, which is there to make the interlaced fields line up properly when combined into frames.

Save these lines into a text file with a .avs extension, such as “bobtest.avs”, and replace “yourfile.avi” with the actual name of your AVI file from the camera.

  1. Examine the results

Open the script file in VirtualDub as if it were an AVI file. Once it’s open, if you go to Video -> Frame Rate, it should say the current rate is 59.940fps.

If all has gone well up to this point, each frame corresponds to one frame of the 720p/1080p video in the game, so you can count frames for moves to determine your input lag.

I hope this works for you. I will update this guide if people run into trouble with any parts of it.

2630

Automatic Image Sequences!

Now we’re going to do some stuff that really shows off the power of AVISynth. This script automatically creates a grid showing 9 frames in sequence. You can open it in VirtualDub and seek to any starting point you want.

To snap a still shot, select Video -> Copy source frame to clipboard, paste it into MS Paint or another image editor, and save it as a JPG or PNG file. Nice ‘n’ easy.

Here is the script. (Watch out for word wrapping.) Save it to a file named “framegrid.avs” or similar, then open it in VirtualDub.


# start with the raw file
# this can be a 60fps AVI file, or another AVISynth script that creates 60fps from a 30fps interlaced file
rawsrc = AVISource("bobtest.avs")

# scale it down for the grid
scaledsrc = BlackmanResize(rawsrc, 320, 240)

# add a frame counter
countsrc = ShowFrameNumber(scaledsrc, false, 0, 10, 240, "Arial", 18,  $00FFFFFF, $00000000, 0, 0)

# add a gray border
src = AddBorders(countsrc, 4, 4, 4, 4, $00808080)

# create multiple streams with different starting points
box1 = Trim(src, 0, 0)
box2 = Trim(src, 1, 0)
box3 = Trim(src, 2, 0)
box4 = Trim(src, 3, 0)
box5 = Trim(src, 4, 0)
box6 = Trim(src, 5, 0)
box7 = Trim(src, 6, 0)
box8 = Trim(src, 7, 0)
box9 = Trim(src, 8, 0)

# combine into three rows
row1 = StackHorizontal(box1, box2, box3)
row2 = StackHorizontal(box4, box5, box6)
row3 = StackHorizontal(box7, box8, box9)

# combine rows into grid
grid = StackVertical(row1, row2, row3)

# output the final result
return grid

If it won’t open the source AVI (or AVS) file, make sure you can open it in VirtualDub directly. If it was created with an HD camera, you may need to install some sort of codecs or convert it to an uncompressed AVI file.

Using it on a random King of Fighters video I found on the internets, the result looks like this:

Fun fun fun! :bgrin:

2631

So are there any tvs over 46 inches that have little or no lag?

2632

None that I know of. I do know of a projector for around $1500 that only has about a frame of lag.The 50 inch panasonic vieras should be pretty good. Their 46 inch plasma has a little more than a frame of lag, so I wouldn’t expect the 50 to be close behind.

2633

For us Canadians, NCIX is running a promo on the evo monitor (Asus VH236H). $160+tax after mail in rebate is pretty hot I think.

2634

i actually have this cable and it works great. i use it on a 17in and 22 in crt monitor which both output 1080i on ps3. i havent used it on the wii. The color is great but the only thing that may be wrong with the cable is the l/r audio may be mixed up. on mine the right was white and the left was red but all you have to do is switch them around and no biggy. if you need help aim me. and if your wondering no lag on any game what so ever

2635

anyone know if at the gods garden 2 tournament they used the same lg W2753V-PF monitors from last year? http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4605332&SRCCODE=GOOGLEBASE&cm_mmc_o=VRqCjC7BBTkwCjCECjCE

2636

I’ve got an issue, I’ve consoles A LOT of consoles from pretty much every era, the problem is I’d like too hook them all up to one TV, so I figured for the classics that only run standard def I’d use one of those things that gives me more RWY ports which is all well and good, then I heard about lag, then that the PS3,360,Wii, PS2 and a few others run some other way, then I heard more about lag so now… I’m really on the fence about what to buy.

Someone help me!!! Please?

2637

I have a problem, not sure does it goes with lag or what…I have SF 4 PC copy…my operating system is core 2 duo 2.6 ghz, 4 gb ram, geforce 8800 gts 640 mb and samsung syncmaster 226bw monitor.+. Had installed windows xp sp 3, and I have it connected to my LG Scarlet 42 inch. We were playing the game without problems, without lag, without anything. Then some crappy virus eated my comp mostly, and SF 4 started lagging. We checked it all, and it was due to software problems. So, I’ve formatted my hdd, and put windows 7 ultimate x64 up on it. And now the problems start…I’ve installed the latest graphic card drivers, hit the SF 4 up, and there is no more lag, like it used to be. But, two new problems occured. Colors were too vivid (way more vivid than on xp windows). And other problem is that now, during the matches, sometimes we get a line breaking the screen, mostly on jumps, it lasts for a second, and it looks like a frame broke and splitted the image in two, with 1 mm displacement. It’s pretty strange. Any ideas what would that be? How to solve it? And yeah, on xp, we made clone displays (samsung monitor 22 inch was set on 1650x1050, while lg scarlet tv was set on 1980x1080), and it worked nice. On windows 7, I can’t set the the displays to have different resolutions. Lg copies 1650x1080 res from samsung monitor. Could this be causing that damn streak to show up?

Well, if any smart soul here has any advice, I’d be most grateful. Thanks.

2638

Sounds like the TV and video card aren’t agreeing on the black/white reference points. PCs normally use a 0-255 range for brightness, while TVs usually use 16-235. Things you can try:

  • Look for a setting on the TV like “black level,” or something related to color with a “wide” option.
  • Calibrate the video card to use the narrower range. I’m sure there’s a page somewhere on how to do this, since it comes up all the time for people using HTPCs (Home Theater PCs.)

If you’re seeing excessive color on both screens, make sure the video drivers aren’t set to use any color-enhancing stuff (“digital vibrance” or whatever.)

I found when doing lag tests with an 8600GT that it would only vsync on one monitor, so the frames were split on the other one. Try reversing the connections, or making the TV the primary monitor. One of these should switch the split to the other screen. I don’t know if there’s a way to eliminate it altogether.

Note that there can be a delay of as much as one frame between ports, so this may make your lag better (or worse) in the process.

I never found a way in the Win7 drivers to scale the same image to different screen resolutions.

Good luck!

2639

Hi!

So I’m looking to purchase a new TV that is good as shit (I have an old CRT TV…) 32inchish or so… I was hoping I could see some kind of a list of good gaming TVs here, or some kind of resource, but all I found was facts about HD and what-not. It was really educational! But… I still don’t know what to buy :} Any recommendations? Thanks!

2640

If you can still find one, a Panasonic L32S1 (1080p) or L32X1 (720p) is your best bet. Prices have gone up quite a bit since they’re almost gone, but these are far ahead of any of the 2010 models that people have tested, including the Panasonic L32U22.

Sharp is also a possibility, if they make a set that size. They have fairly consistently had low lag numbers for a while now. (Look for “Vyper Drive” if you want to be sure for a specific model.)