The list itself isn’t that bad. Obviously Dic should move up, but other then that it’s ok.
I take issue with Claw not having a 7/3 advantage on Ryu and Sim on that match-up chart though.
Some other ratios are also questionable.
I wonder who built that chart and how they built it. It seems in the ballpark of reasonable, but has some unconventional ratings (Honda-Deejay being 3-7 while Honda-Ryu is 4-6? Honda-Bison being rated the same as Honda-Hawk? Guile-Cammy at 5-5?)
Also the “total scores” include Akuma matchups, which artifically changes some characters’s total rating (lol Zangief).
Good point Thelo. Here are the totals minus Akuma. I would tend to agree with the overall placement, but I’m sure as shit no expert.
TOTAL
BALROG 84
DHALSIM 82
VEGA 82
SAGAT 81
RYU 81
DEE JAY 80
E. HONDA 80
CHUN-LI 77
M. BISON 74
KEN 73
GUILE 73
BLANKA 71
CAMMY 69
FEI LONG 68
T. HAWK 65
ZANGIEF 60
What about short, short xx super? Your bound to get knocked down at some point… After the xip, you’ve got to either stand to stop the knee bash or crouch to stop the super combo. Guess wrong and either result can be devestating. Just saying.
okay, my sagat isnt that great so i probably so i might not know the matchups as well as other sagat players, but can someone explain how he loses to vega, goes even with ryu and beats guile?
i always thought that vega vs sagat was even. tiger uppercut covers a lot of range and it hurts. his j.hk is really good against vega if vega doesn’t have a charge.
shouldnt sagat have an advantage vs ryu? he has faster fireballs with faster recovery even though it was nerfed. sagat also has more range than ryu on his normals.
as for guile. i think this match is even. guile has better normals than sagat, especially his c.mk in this fight. it can stuff his fireball startup pretty well and i dont think sagat has anything in range to beat it aside from psychic tiger uppercut. also, the hitbox on sagats arm has increased, so it is easier to stuff the tiger shots with c.mk. the 4 extra frames of recovery on the tiger shot might make a difference. not sure can guile backhand him right now after a sonic boom. i know he can’t against st. old sagat. nevertheless, the 4 extra frames should give guile more breathing room to charge, etc.
No one said Ken can not be dangerous. It’s just Ken has to be a little more creative to get in. Once he gets in sure he can cause havok but we were just stating Ryu has some better tools in the matchup.
Maining Ken, what I’m about to say probably has zero credibility, but I honestly think that Ken is undervalued. Yes, his fireball isn’t as good as Ryu’s or Sagat’s, but I think the greater range of his s.DP and also his faster walking speed (for walking DPs) make him nearly as potent at zoning opponents as Ryu. Furthermore, Ken can also employ terrific mix ups and rush downs - an aspect that is somewhat lacking in Ryu’s game. Yes, Ken’s super pretty much is only useful to anti-air reversal or for c.lk>c.lk>super, but is a move that is used probably once a match (if that) enough to relegate him down to the ghettos of the lower-mid (as eventhubs has him). As for Sim, I actually enjoy playing that match because it let’s me get a little more creative than if I’m playing someone like Honda where it is just fireballs and sweeps.
Oh, and I know that the Vega v. Ken match up has been discussed to death with the general consensus that Vega wins, but I feel that the match up is even, based on my experiences.
You are wrong.
Ken is average as fuck.
Cold hard truth bro.
Sagat vs Claw - Claw gets in damn near for free when Sagat shoots a tiger shot. Sagat is a little better at containing Claw then Ryu though. Ryu definitely loses this match worse then Sagat. 6/4 Claw.
Sagat vs Ryu - Sagat got nerfed while Ryu got a slight buff. Use to be Sagat’s fight but now I would just give it a very slight advantage to Sagat. 55/45 Sagat’s favor. Ryu recovers faster on his fb so I dunno what made you think otherwise. Ryu has better normals for sure BTW. Not even a debate. Low forward and sweep > all of Sagat’s normals.
Sagat vs Guile - Sagat pretty much controls the match. Guile needs to get in and stay which can be tough. Guile is better up close then Sagat is. I mean fuck who isn’t. Sagat is mediocre up close. Always has been always will be. It’s his design. But the thing is…you need to get in to make it count. This is where Guile runs into problems. I call that as 6/4 Sagat.
Sagat higher than Ryu? Dictator lower than Chun, DJ, and Honda? No. How could Dictator, a top of the mid tier character in ST, who received only buffs, be rated lower than Chun, who was also top mid but was devastatingly nerfed in HDR?
I was wondering that too, always thought it was the other way 'round…
Sagat and Ryu have the same amount of points so I’m guessing that was just preference to have him above Ryu.
I agree that their match-ups should be damn near identical though save for a few.
It is a pretty big buff to chun having no old sagat imo
Also I think you are inflating how much dictator was buffed.
No, he’s right.
Dic was already top of the upper mid tier with Chun in VST. No way he’s lower than her now.
Also he’s not inflating his buffs you’re under appreciating how much a solid normal AA and reversal makes an already near top character even better.
You must’ve not played damdai or westsyde yet…
In the right hands Ken MURDERS everyone without a projectile (with the exception of Gief maybe) and his new buffs put him on solid ground against everyone else.
How is it a direct buff to Chun that O.Sagat was taken out? The characters who had the hardest times against O.Sagat would be the ones who got the biggest improvement in the R.Sagat match in HDR compared to ST. If a character has a really losing match against O.Sagat and a character is eve with O.Sagat which one sees more improvement in HDR now that O.Sagat is gone?
Chun certainly was not the worst against O.Sagat in ST. Also, O.Sagat being taken out means everyone improves in the R.Sagat match no matter what anyways compared to ST. So people who got owned by O.Sagat will have slightly (or maybe significantly) better numbers in HDR. And people who overly beat O.Sagat in ST will also have better numbers in HDR.
Are you saying that Chun had such a major disadvantage against O.Sagat compared to the rest of the cast in ST that O.Sagat being removed in HDR automatically propels her further up than the remaining characters? Realistically the difference between O.Sagat and R.Sagat is felt across the entire cast pretty dramatically and I would hardly say that Chun received the most benefits from O.Sagat to R.Sagat.
Sure it was a favorable move in the charts for her but it was a favorable move for everyone else as well and I don’t think O.Sagat becoming R.Sagat readjusted the tiers for anyone else but…Sagat.
It’s even more than just that. Even if Dictator wasn’t changed and remained static from ST to HDR, he’d still be considerably higher than Chun in HDR, simply because Chun was nerfed so significantly compared to her former self in ST.
He is essentially the same but now his specials/super are slightly better.
Him having a throw trap makes him auto dangerous when well played but his general tool set is inferior overall to about half the cast give or take.
Ken murders Boxer and Claw?
Really?
HAHAHAHAHAHAH!
But, no seriously, I’ll let that go since you probably weren’t thinking of them.
Remember kids that fb’s aren’t the end-all-be-all in HDR. The top 2 don’t have them and they are monsters.
Yeah, I remembered that on the way home. For some reason I don’t automatically lump them together with the rest of the non-fireballers.
I fear the Ken SUPER in that combo.
Heck, I fear the Ken Fierce Uppercut in that combo.
“Ambiguous cross-up” and “hit confirm into Super/Special” are very nasty, especially when tied in with the “throw loop” threat.
I WISH that combo was easier to do so more players could get it out.
I prefer playing against opponents that are gonna keep me on my toes, otherwise I develop bad habits that don’t protect against these kinda things.
Thats a pretty big statement. Weird how hes still mid tier.
For VST we have this ranking as a starting point:
I think the people behind the chart are great players, but I DO NOT in any way suggest this chart is “truth”.
(I’ve alread mentioned in another post that I think the T.Hawk vs. Zangief numbers are A**; as is backed by 9 Japanese Tourney vids [all I could find] where T.Hawk wins them all and Zangief wins a total of THREE ROUNDS out of all the matches + Jodim vs. Lieut Dan; I can list all these matches if anyone is curious)
Looking at Chun Li and Dictator numbers, if you think some aren’t right then cite em and we can go over them, and arrive at adjusted rankings.
Also, take into account how they matchup vs. top tier characters for purposes of tournament tiering.
For HDR we can go with the chart referenced above as a starting point:
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/31/super-street-fighter-2-turbo-hd-remix-tiers-character-rankings/
Again, just cite the number for Chun or Dictator that you don’t like and we can work out the rankings of each.