Damdai did put up a Ken matchup chart in page #60 of this thread.
So for all intents and purposes, ken/ryu are almost equal.
Does that put ken in the top 8 characters?
My bad then.
I do not think Ken and Ryu are remotely equal.
I think Ryu is number 2 overall.
I think Ken is somewhere mid tier.
<added this post to my post above>
God Antonio is so good. BruceLB was killing that day too!
Your whole post is truth, but this is the ultimate truth. He fucks up the curve for everyone else for sure. 
I play a low tier character in the game and there are only a few matches that I feel like I have to play a certain way. Most of the time I feel like I can mix creativity in with the stuff I ‘have to do’ as a Honda player. I think when you reach that point with your character you’re able to unlock their full potential.
What post #? I’d like to see what he put down for Honda.
(BTW: Some people have their display settings set to display a different number of threads per page. Like me! 
)
Sorry, but what other way would you possibly use a charge character at a high level of play other than to be charging at ALL times?. Any charge player worth his salt that i’ve ever played has ALWAYS charged during other moves being executed, and has his special moves available on command virtually all the time, and in situations where he doesn’t have them, like walking forward for example, if he did the game would be broken. Generally those kind of moves are faster and alow for more rapid advancement across the horizontal space which makes up for their charging time and their limitation on movement and gives them a different kind of value in the game to something like a hurricane kick or a dragon punch. Imagine a move like a walk forward scissor kick, claw’s wall dive, honda’s torpedo, or blanka’s ball being available via command with no charge needed. That would be way too powerful and unbalanced and would break the game. The only command character’s move i can think of that compares to the speed of any of those is akuma’s long teleport, and even that doesn’t deal damage, it just changes the horizontal spacing of the game very quickly.
I have destroyed the :db: and :df: diagonals on countless joysticks and pads by holding them at all times and snapping back to them instantly as soon as i activate a move that loses me my charge, and as far as i’m concerned that’s not “playing around” with the character, it’s the way these characters MUST be played to even compete at any kind of high level. I really don’t see the issue you’re raising as an issue at all.Charge moves do not take two to three seconds to charge, it’s much less than that. From memory (correct me if i’m wrong, because i’m too lazy to check T.Akiba’s data) the quickest charge moves take 54 to 55 frames to charge, which is around a second at best, and most good players will have their charges available 99% of the time anyways.
I certainly understand what you’re getting at, and it’s certainly a factor in how a charge character plays, but it’s a very small factor in amongst loads of other more important factors that have a much greater bearing on the strength of your character and their chances of winning.
Anyways, i don’t mean to nit pick, so apologies, but i have honestly never felt the limitations that you feel exist for these characters. I know what you’re getting at, and i think you’re definitely correct that it has a bearing on how a character plays, but i just don’t think it’s as much of a handicap as you seem to think it is.
No. There are far too many examples to list where a charge character doesn’t need to have a charge held to be effective. If you are doing Boxer’s throw loop? Dictator’s jump attacks? Corner lock-down with Claw? You might give up your charge in those situations because you need to be mobile.
If you are walking forward with Boxer to throw your opponent, odds are that you are giving up your forward, and downward charges to do so. If you are playing as Dictator and you are jumping in on your opponent then you must give up your charge temporarily to get airborne and jump at your opponent. If you are playing Claw and you are trying to lock your opponent down with standing medium kick and a walk-up throw then you can’t charge either direction. You make it sound like charge characters should rely on their charge special moves which is very wrong.
Again this is very wrong. Trying to charge for special moves every second of a match would significantly limit both your offense and defense. The best players give up their charge constantly to open up their offensive and defensive arsenal for better tactics or movement.
If you are on the main page of the any forum viewing the threads, you’ll see various columns, ‘thread, rating, last post, replies, view’.
Well replies is listed in orange, meaning it’s a clickable link, well clink the replies number for this thread (it’s around 1,700 at the time of this post). That opens up a list of everyone who has posted in the thread, and how many posts that they have made. Well click on the number of posts that they have made and the link will take you to all of their posts in the thread.
So you wanted Damdai’s chart? Here’s all of Damdai’s posts in this thread.
I think what Mackdaddi is saying is that when not committing to a move that breaks charge, the default stick position for a charge character is in the charge position.
So, in your example of Dictator’s jump attacks above, the Dictator player would move the stick to charge position immediately after executing the jump. (while still in the air)
I will say that there are circumstances in which a charge player will choose NOT to keep a charge outside of moves requiring charge break.
Here are some examples:
- neutral crouch to duck a cross-up Ryu air hurricane, to avoid blocking pose which would get hit.
- Dictator using neutral/offensive stick positions when pressure poking vs. Ken to avoid having a Ken attack trigger blocking pose which would force Dictator into block stun and delay reaction speed.
- Dictator neutral stick during Super hitting opponent, to avoid getting charge and executing accidental Devil’s Reverse when going for additional 2x jumping Strong juggles.
This is very true.
As a Blanka player, there are plenty of times where you have to give up the charge in order to do a link combo, hit a s.Mp anti-air, or do some biting. If you take those things away by holding down-back at all times, a lot of matches would be damn near impossible.
Of course, absolutely. I think what i was getting at was outside of crucial movements, spacing, etc, etc whenever possible, a charge character will generally want to have charge available to him as much as possible.Charging while doing other things like jumping, moving, executing other moves etc is part of the game, but of course it’s better to give up a charge if it leads to you gaining the initiative in any situation. For example, you mentioned dic’s jumping attacks, generally when i jump in with dic i’ll snap straight back to the down back diagonal to get charge in both directions a fraction of a second after i jump, while i’m just launching, and if i land to do a 5 hitter TOD for example i’ll release my down charge for the st.LK part but hold my back charge to retain charge for the upcoming scissor kick. As soon as the cr.MK comes out and i activate a cancel into the scissor kick, even before the scissor kick has hit i’ll have returned to down back, and will be charging to keep my options open for whatever i decide to follow up with.
My point was that as long as i’m not doing something that’s more important, i’ll be charged up at all times. Not sure if it came across in my post or not, but we’re definitely on the same page.
Yep, that’s it 100%, thanks zass. BTW The examples you gave are exactly what i mean about giving up a charge to gain the initiative or an advantage in the situation, but otherwise i’ll be charging wherever possible, and will usually have my special moves available if i need them.
Actually, it was day 2 I was really in the zone. Day 1 I was still trying to get used to the PS3.
Antonio is crazy good though. I’m glad I didn’t have to play him in the main tourney. We’ve played that match so much and know each others tactics so well that it’s almost like a coin flip on who wins.
All good.
By the way, to avoid confusion:
“Zaspacer” is not “Zass”.
Two different players.
Couldn’t agree more. His Blanka is nearly flawless.
at least im not the only one who thinks ken is hondas worst match
Going off damdai’s chart, ken and ryu are almost equal. That was my reference point, particularly seeing that ken plays vs. sim better than ryu, is equal to ryu vs boxer, and that they both lose to claw. Also, that ryu has an advantage over ken, but I was looking more at the overall matchups.
On damdai’s chart though.
Yeah, i know Sorry, i should’ve been more clear.
Thanks ZASPACER (not Zass)
I think regarding HDR only Sim has an easier time vs Ken then he does Ryu. I know Damdai had Sim with a higher win loss ratio over Ryu then he does Ken but I dont know about that. I know Damdai has a mean Ken and tends to punish you with the knee bash once he gets in. I think that is a tool that is overlooked and not used by many Ken players. The ones that use the knee bash I worry a little more. Ken also has a tougher time getting in on Sim and his hurricane doesnt knock down on one hit and his fireball is slow enough that Sim can match fireball for fireball. If I am wrong other Sim players let me know.
Ryu can zone better due to the better fireball. A solid Ryu will make Sim somewhat come to him. And Ryu due to the better hurricane kick can take more chances with short hurricane kicks to get in on Sim and punish with good combos. Also Ryu has the better super as it is safe on block. Ken can be punished if he misses.
Again if I am wrong other and better Sim players let me know.
This should be fun…
Here’s a Tier list that Eventhubs put up. (Linked.)
Chun-Li, Hawk, and Geif each have their own Tier, which makes perfect sense to me.
:looney:
I agree. I would rather play against Ken than Ryu any day of the week. Another advantage that Ryu has against Sim is his super. I don’t fear Ken’s super at all. I’m always extra careful when Ryu has his super meter built up.