please stop posting before u make a fool out of yourself some more.
Understand what you’re saying, but saying a charge character is limited is a pretty dumb statement.
I don’t want to jump on the bandwagon, but have to respectfully disagree with this. You?re claiming that charge characters are at an inherent disadvantage over shotos/command types because they have to charge their moves, and it just isn?t the case. They?re just DIFFERENT systems. Each type has it?s own inherent set of mechanics that combine with the individual character?s move set and the player?s style and ability, and create a different set of permutations depending on the character matchup each time.
At all but the very LOWEST levels of play (ie beginners still learning to jump & charge, players who telegraph their moves, etc) there is no disadvantage, and no predictability that is caused soley because of the method of getting special moves. Predictability is a consequence of a player?s thought patterns and play style, and comes from getting too dependant on tried and tested patterns and counters, rather than because of the use of a certain type of character. I play almost exclusively charge characters, and I can?t remember the last time I died because I had no charge for a special. As well as that, I always make sure to be as unpredictable as I know how, taking the fact that the other player knows that I have to charge into account and playing off of what they think I?m about to do. Generally speaking, the other guy has no idea what I?m really about to do, and if he does it?s because he?s a better player than me, not because of how I get my special moves to happen.
If your theory was sound, then all of the best players in the world like jwong, afrolegends, sirlin, etc would be all exclusively using shotos and wiping the floor with everybody because they are the greatest players out there, and if anybody was good enough to have tapped into this ?limitless potential? you speak of then they would have done it. The very fact that we can watch countless close battles like Afrolegends (Boxer) versus Daigo ( Ryu) ([media=youtube]TlpKqkKd2dM[/media]) that come down to the wire in the last round tells you that at top level play the 2 types of control mechanic are equal and that the quality of the player is what really decides matches.
Just as a rule in this thread, can we not quote large posts, especially when you are making a one sentence reply? Is it really necessary to highlight a massive post to make one single sentence reply? Thanks.
And charge characters have a major advantage in terms of execution compared to other characters due to faster inputs during situations where you must react quickly to something. This was brought up in Thelo’s reaction-based defense thread (linked above) and posters discussed how inputting forward and punch or kick in reaction to an opponent’s move is much easier than inputting a special command such as a dragon punch or tiger knee motion.
Understanding how inputs affect game play, and therefore balance, is critical when creating and adjusting tiers.
Agreed. This is a perfect example of what i was on about in my last post, there are pros and cons of either system, a pro is a little faster reaction time with charge specials, as posted, but a con that balances it out is you have to charge your move to get it. A pro with ryu is you can walk forward and perform a special move anti air anytime you want (DP), whereas a charge character generally can’t do that.Guile’s flashkick is a good example, he can’t get it instantly on command, he has to have a charge, which can be somewhat limiting in terms of his movement options, but if someone jumps in on him he can react much quicker and is more likely to punish the jump than a shoto would be in the same position because a dragon punch from a crouch takes a fraction of a second longer to do and is more complicated to pull off on reaction.
There are pros and cons to each type of mechanic, but different play styles evolve out of these pros and cons over time that attribute to the strengths & weaknesses of each character and help put them into the positions they’re in on the tier. To say that one type of mechanic for getting special moves is better than the other or gives an overall advantage is not accurate, they’re equally powerful but in very different ways that have wide ranging effects on style of play. The tier lists do not go out of the window no matter how much mastery of a character is attained, they take all of this into account.
Not bad, but Fei’s got Blanka 6-4, if not worse. Yet another character where horizontal ball is more of a liability than an asset; you get counter hit for extra damage now, and even when it connects Fei can fierce rekka x3. CW kicks also eat through electricity, handshake hits slide, and even st.shorts all work Blanka over pretty well.
I really agree with what Fulaani said regarding Blanka’s matchups; it’s not that he’s better, it’s that he sucks less. As with every character in the game, Blanka’s still obviously very potent in the right hands. To be truly competitive with him, though, is a much more uphill battle than most of the cast (unless you like to grapple, it seems).
I also personally disagree with Cammy / Blanka being 5-5. I think its more 6/4 in Cammy’s favor. Thrust kick has priority over every not straight ball and when timed correctly beats straight ball clean. Cannon drill beats ball clean. From any distance not known as right on top it beats electricity. Too many hooligan setups and heck j.mp beats ball and then once blanka is pushed into the corner Cammy just has too many options.
Of course saying any match up is in Cammy’s favor reduces the amount of sympathy she gets as being the worst character so on second thought… Cammy is terrible and she loses to everybody 0-10.
This is not a good reasoning, imho. Every character has a counter to nearly every move in the game, that’s why saying “this beat that” most of the time has no sense in discussing matchups if you dont consider the situations that will arise.
Can you thrust kick any balls on reaction, for example? I cant and if you can, I would put my money on you for any tournament you attend.
If Cammy corners Blanka, its gg, ok… But mid screen, what can you do to be that dangerous? Thrust kicks arent safe on block against Blanka, you cant whiff c.mk and Cannon Drill must be used wisely, or they arent safe at all. Jump mp? only if Blanka is knocked down or you’ll get a slap in the face…
I play that matchup on both sides, and I think its nearly even, or Blanka slight advantage.
Guys, O.G. Ken is a hyper fighting player, just move along.
Mackdaddi,
The link that you posted proves my point even further… Why is top tier balrog going toe to toe with so called “mid tier” Ryu? Because RYU is NOT mid tier in the right hands. That is the point of my argument. Keep in mind this is ST where Balrog is slightly stronger and Ryu slighty weaker than their HD counterpart. I am strictly referring to HD and I dont play ST.
You referred to “if my theory is correct.” Look how many Ken/Ryu players are out there finishing top spots? Am I right or wrong?
[media=youtube]TlpKqkKd2dM[/media]
And yes I do play HD.
When I refer to limitations of a character I am referring to ability to do things whenever one wishes. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying charge characters are not good because obviosuly some are very good.
Regardless of how “good” a player who plays a charge type character, he still has to “wait” the two or three seconds to execute a move. He can play around with the charge a lil bit by charging within a move already executed… but there is still a certain limitation. No matter how good a player is he cannot make a move that needs to charge in 2-3 seconds come out in one second. So in that sense, charge characters are limited because they cannot execute a move at every possible open opportunity. I will agree reaction is “probably” faster with a charge type character or at least allows it to be “easier” to be faster.
Having said that, execution of non-charge character moves depends highly on the skill level of the player (you). What if a player becomes so quick he can match the reaction of a charge type character? Now you have similar reaction timing, but a charge character has to wait while a non charge character is free will. You CANNOT change the charge time of a move. However, you can greatly improve your reaction/execution of a non-charge move. Its all on you. That is what I meant by limitations.
Boxer and Claw are number 1 and number 2.
They are charge characters.
So hush.
Who said Ryu was mid tier? Thats dumb.
If all you’re saying is that non-charge characters have the benefit of doing their specials at any time, I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. It’s actually obvious to the point of being a non-issue. Taking that, and then construing it as an overall advantage to non-charge characters though, is simply flat wrong. Charge moves usually have benefits other than easier reaction execution to compensate for their charge times.
You really can’t be choosy in “how” you play a matchup and still expect to win.
Most of us on here are interested in how a character performs using their full arsenal.
[media=youtube]UtlJH7w01nI[/media]
[media=youtube]Ki1Tq37rsys[/media]
I have less than zero to add to the Blanka discussions, but I found [media=youtube]5A7S7ST7nlY"[/media] to be highly interesting. The goods come at the 4:00 minute mark where Komoda comes out of nowhere to run Aniken, Yaya AND Daigo - in a row.
He wasn’t talking about how to play a matchup, by “unless you like to grapple” he meant Blanka has a tough time but not as tough as gief and hawk.
While I think you could’ve worded it better, I do think I know what you’re getting at.
If I follow correctly, you’re premise is that because of the shoto’s flexibility to do any move at any time it makes them more dynamic. It means you’re not forced into playing a cookie-cutter style. Further, if you couple this with the fact that their various special moves are quite useful in many situations, then at super-top level play a master shoto player is afforded a lot of freedom. They can create their own unique play style and they’re also capable of responding to just about any situation. And that makes them the best at that level of play. Does that sound about right? If so, I agree with some of the finer points, but I disagree with the overall premise.
To start, I would agree that some characters are, or at least seem, more flexible than others. However, I believe the main flaw in your thinking is that this is the only thing that matters. For example, one facet of the game is how much damage you can do when your opponent makes a mistake. While Ryu can theoretically land big combos like crossup.rh, fierce rush, cr.mp, cr.mk xx fireball, it is unlikely for him to do so. Compare this to characters like Bison or Blanka, who have a very good shot at landing some of their more devastating combos. This is something that is very near to my heart as a Sim player. Just because you *can *deal with just about anything doesn’t automatically give you a big edge. If you have to do the right thing 5 times in a row to equal the damage your opponent can do off of one mistake, it creates an equilibrium.
In addition, the pay-off in a given situation is part of what restricts people from playing too far out of the norm. For example, Guile players could play him rush-down style. He has a decent cross-up, good combos, and good lock down strings. But most often they don’t. Why do you think that is? It’s not lack of creativity. It’s that Guile’s defense is even better than his offense. So, why gamble on random stuff when you have a sure thing. On the flip side, the amount of flexibility a shoto has depends on the match. For example, when playing against Honda you really can’t get too creative without risking leaving a hole in your game that will let him destroy you.
Finally, the best of the best players with any character are creative use them to their full potential. Komoda’s Blanka is perhaps a prime example of this. He epitomizes the idea of throwing the tier charts out the window. Afro Legend’s Dee Jay, Noguchi’s Fei Long, and Haru Tejyo’s Zangief are other good examples. Even watching someone like Muteki play Guile looks a bit different than other “good” Guiles. The ability to make a character your own and push them to their limit has at least as much about the player as it does with the character’s abilities.
BTW, most people considered Ryu to be near the top tier in ST, and some think he is top tier in HDR. Ken was largely believed to be near the bottom in ST. But he’s definitely better in HDR.
Totally agree.
I feel like ken is underestimated somewhat. His hado is different than ryu’s but it affects some matchups differently, as does his lol ground tatsu. That being said, his jump punch xx air tatsu is a great mixup tool, and his srks are better than ryu’s.
Ryu has a great super for pressure, and Ken’s super is a great AA. They can both be used to punish in certain situations.
Ken has a longer reaching overhead, although it feels harder to combo after, but ryu also has f.hp for pressure/combos.
R.ken is obviously better than N.ken in alot of ways, but is ken low mid or high mid.
EDIT: Oh yeah and ken’s got a throw loop with a safe jump afterwards on just about everybody. Athough OJ, I still believe that hawk and sagat beat it. Unless you still think the computer cheated with just those two characters. 
For those with much better experience especially with ken(damdai hopefully), I was wondering where you would put ken and why, or maybe matchup charts too.