21150

Daemos, you can toy around without allowing yourself to get knocked down. Nash told Bison to “get up” and start talking. This goes along with the Alpha 2 ending where we know for a fact Nash had him on the ropes. Bison does not look happy at all when the henchman is asking him if they should send a recon unit to see if Nash was alive or not:

Bison is salty as fuck right there. No way did he intentionally allow himself to get knocked down and gripped up by some guy he has no connection to. There’s no reason for it. For as sadistic as Bison can be, that doesn’t really seem in-character. Against Chun-Li in Alpha 2, Bison compliments her and says he’ll fight with both hands next time. That seems more like an example of him playing around and throwing it in her face. Against both Rose and Nash, he went into the battle thinking they weren’t anything special and took a nice beating for it. Bison losing isn’t really an issue.

21151

Yeah, Bison didn’t seem amused at all. I think it was the same kind of situation as when he was toying with Ryu and Ken in SFIIAM until they managed to land many blows on him.

21152

Daemos, love your post above. Ironically I think you’re also describing Bison’s metagame perfectly.

In almost every game he’s been in, he is one of the few characters whose playstyle almost perfectly matches his personality. Especially in SFV.

He is quite literally a character that relies on psychological damage and psychological tactics. When playing as Bison, I have more fun and more success when I play from that point of view, that of the trickster in the classical sense.

You can of course play against lesser opponents with a raw power only game plan of all out offense, which is also keeping in line with his personality.

However, when playing against an equal or better human opponent, it’s more about instilling fear and uncertainty balanced with fundamentals and power that wins the day.

I agree with you that Bison plans to sandbag and fuck with his opponents in canon, however, just like in a match in-game, this can backfire as the example of Nash’s A2 ending shows clearly as well as that moment in SFII:TAM where he is astonished that Ryu could land that 10-hit combo on him and “topple” him. Bison specifically states that he has “clearly underestimated this man” of Ryu.

21153

I agree with the others on the Charlie vs Bison deal. As Daemos said, I do like that Bison likes to toy with his opponents rather than just kill them outright, but I see him as a savvy enough guy to know how to perfectly screw with someone and let them hang them with their own rope without affecting his own image. In my opinion, he wouldn’t willingly appear weaker due to his ego and that wouldn’t fit with his narrative. We also haven’t seen evidence of him playing the injured, helpless shtick before, I can see him at most playing the “hmm-hmm! Your skill is interesting, we may be on a similar skill level, but you lack what really matters – a killer mindset – TEETH.” Before departing or taking a moment to give a speech to give him more time for whatever plot he’s got in mind.

IF anything, in the fight vs Charlie, he could perfectly employ the “villain explains the plan” thing to stall for time while trading blows, or do the anime “hah, you’re not worthy of my full power” ploy. Charlie’s plenty bright and tactical. I can see him using quite a bit of risk and caution to close the distance between him and Bison.

21154

Daemos is being himself again. It IS canon that Nash always had the upper hand against Bison in Alpha 2 and even in ASF, where Nash admitted that he stood no chance against an ever-powerful form of Bison, he came VERY close to bringing him down. He says “a bit late…” when the moons are finally deactivated, which to me is a big indication of how Nash could stop Bison if it weren’t for the power transferred to Bison’s body through the moons. Even the Illuminati expected him to destroy Bison completely. Notice how Kolin reports to Gill that it was not Nash (but Ryu) that destroyed Bison? That shows their trust in the man. Bison is strong, but Nash is stronger. He has always been so. That’s what makes him a “tragic hero,” a “paradoxical avenger,” as the game likes to call him. The only man capable of stopping him (until Ryu taps into his true potential) gets destroyed before he is able to do what he’s destined to do thanks to external circumstances, not his own inability.

21155

More =)

21156

I think Charlie has a unique advantage over Bison in SFA2-days. They are both incredibly powerful fighters…but Charlie fights for justice. He doesn’t want to kill Bison…he doesn’t have that darkness that Bison feeds off of both literally (yo Psycho Power) and figuratively with his psychological efforts in a battle.

It’s like Mace Windu fighting Palpatine. Is Mace stronger? Almost certainly not. Does he have better technique? Quite possibly. Does his fighting style absolutely play against the strength of his opponent? Yes.

Both Mace and Charlie enjoy fighting…but use it as a weapon against “darkness”…against injustice. They take their love of combat and turn it into an overwhelmingly positive, honed weapon for true justice and righteousness. They separate themselves from their lower emotions and get the job done. They’re like Justice Terminators when the chips are down.

Palpatine & Bison both feed off the negative qualities of their enemies. Their aggression…their fear…their personal foibles. When they cross proverbial swords with an opponent, they block the sword but attack the wielder on every level. Psychologically, socially, mentally. They oppress their opponent. Mace & Charlie though? When those mofos are fighting their is no wielder. They ARE the sword. One and the same. Inseparable. All the efforts Bison/Palpatine would put in to winning that aspect of the battle? Utterly useless. Not only a waste of time but actively counterproductive to them winning. Wasted effort & resources in a war is a sure-fire way to lose…and that is how Palpatine and Bison lose against Mace & Charlie.

21157

I think Charlie caught Bison in a state he wasn’t the A3 final form or after a battle towards someone like… it could be after the Ryu, Sakura and Ken encounter from A3?

21158

@crash_and_burn @SuperSonic @YagamiFire

As i said many times Bison figure it’s kinda like Dracula character in fictions

He’s the evil dark king of monsters and once a while he return to threat humanity, then his arrogance betray him in some way and poor humans kill him.
Then some minion resurrect him and the loop restart lol

To be fair i don’t consider Nash “stronger” than Bison

More like he’s an exceptional fighter with tremendous amount of technique, talent, fight IQ, will and enough speed/reflexes to dodge psycho shit and survive long enough to land enough strikes to bring the monster down

Think like the matador is’nt stronger than the bull, but he can kill it

Basically more than being stronger than Bison, i think he know how and he’s able to play the underdog fight to defeat him

For how i see it, SFV Nash will have killed a moon-less SFV Bison, but at the cost of his own life using that kamikaze ki-bomb… even if tbh both him and Illuminati already know that

To take a more ancient narrative than star wars ( =) ) think like Archangel Micheal served as God’s sword to bring down Lucifer, who was the most powerful of all angels (aka more than Micheal too)

In narrative being corrupt is a form of weakness, specially when opposed to something pure

21159

Michael is another good archetypical example. Lucifer’s great gift was his beauty (including general persuasiveness) to convert other angels to his side. Michael, however, was an angel without flaw and thus Lucifer, though a powerful archangel in his own right, lost his greatest weapon against him.

Basically Michael/Mace/Charlie are the robot master whose power you get first before fighting Lucifer/Palpatine/Bison.

21160

Hmm, I don’t know, I can see it being close, but I don’t think we’d get the same result of Charlie blowing himself up. That seemed more like an improvised and drastic response to Bison’s final recharge. Like you previously said, he was able to bring him down to his knee. I think then they’d have their final fight after catching some last minute wind and Bison’s refusal to die until his plans come to fruition would make him fight like hell. I think it could from there go either way, but I could see Charlie barley holding on and living.

Like I said in a previous post, I think they wanted more for Charlie, so bottom line if he killed Bison and died, it would serve them, but if he came back, barley alive, they’d fix him up and use him for propaganda purposes. I can see him becoming another disciple, much to Urien’s anger and disgust.

End of the day, Charlie did accomplish quite a bit of fighting despite being rushed out the door and incomplete. Makes me wonder how powerful a “perfect” Charlie 2.0 would be.

21161

Incorrect. Canonically speaking according to ASF, Bison wasn’t knocked down even once, not even when he took the ultimate hadouken he took it standing EVEN AFTER they shut down the moons and Nash absorbed a chunk of his power. He may fall to his knee, but never knocked down. SF2AM did the same thing with Bison, he was never knocked down and this is to show just how powerful of a fighter he really is.

Bison’s toying with you involves making you afraid, angry, and feel hopeless/helpless. It isn’t merely an assertion of dominance, he wants to break down your will. Bison has dominion over negative energy.

Nash is not second to Ryu, he is likely upper-mid tier in overall in the story. The Spider charts support this.

As for feigning weakness and being knocked down…

Mace Windu never had a chance against Palpatine, who is arguably the most poweful Sith that ever lived, but Palpatine had a greater plan in mind, which was to set the stage for Anakin’s conversion to the dark side.

Furthermore, SF5’s version of the Charlie x Bison fight is the canon version. Referencing the old A2 fight in an argument for anything other than its historical value is meaningless. Viper says it clearly in SF5, Bison was way beyond anything Nash could’ve possibly imagined. I am not denying that he may have gotten in a good punch or two, and may have pissed Bison off a bit (in the way a fly does), but Bison was sandbagging is my point, because he wanted Nash’s friends to kill him.

@“Darc Requiem”

I agree with you on Rose. Bison went in not expecting her to be as powerful as she was, and it was only after his defeat at her hands that he started the substitute clone bodies experiments. Which shows that he had to make contingency plans after Rose.

@“Super Sonic”

Ah, the intellectual speaks.*

Nash’s fight with Alpha 2 is no longer canon. SF5’s version of Nash’s Alpha 2 encounter with Bison IS canon.

^ This is the most complete version of Bison’s encounter with Nash according to SF5 and supersedes all other versions of the story. Use this.

21162

Hey. You confused me with @“Darc Requiem”!!

There are two perspectives to Nash’s fight in SFV: Nash’s and Viper’s. The dialogue varies a bit in both, but Nash’s is the closest to the the original events.

Nash remembered everything from his convo with Guile up to being shot by the helicopter. Viper was going off of secondhand information. Nash’s should have more merit on that alone, I believe.

Bison beats Nash down, then Nash is shot, and it ends with Bison squeezing him (sorta looks like his grab) and tossing him down the river. He basically delivered the killing blow to Nash.

Nash’s perspective basically follows Alpha 2 pretty closely. I don’t think it’s wrong to follow that sequence.

Alpha 1 even had Nash defeat Bison…only to get taken out once he decided to let his guard down. I think the main point was to always show that even someone as dreadful as Bison could be taken down briefly, but not long enough for it to matter.

21163

So sorry @“Doctrine Dark” I can’t keep up with the AV changes.

Nash was going off hazy zombie memories, and Viper knows everything. She literally knows about the Illuminati ffs. All of Viper’s intel thus far has been accurate, this is her shtick or primary characteristic - she knows things.

Furthermore, Nash’s recollection is incomplete because he did not know all the details happening in the background like who was Bison, and how far his reach was. Viper does, Viper is actually the only recollection we have about the end of SF2 too btw. I trust her intel over zombie memories from 3-5 years ago. Her version of events also give us much more details than Nash’s, therefore it is more complete.

Also the character of Bison changed a lot from A1 to A3. A1/A2 Bison was a powerful fighter that wanted to subjugate super soldiers (see his A2 ending). Alpha 3 changed EVERYTHING. Bison went from being a powerful martial artist who corrupted his art, to essentially the Satan of the SF universe. I don’t put trust in those endings so much, especially when they contradict what we know now.

Regardless of who you think “won” the fight, Bison was fucking with Nash and all smiles all the way through in SF5, and had complete knowledge about who was coming to “apprehend” him. Guile is a good soldier, and tried to stop Nash from going after Bison because his military superiors wanted Nash to stop. Why? Because he would be meddling in their affairs and affiliation with Bison.

Am I saying that Nash did not throw in a good punch or two in that fight? No. Am I saying that Nash is weak? No, definitely not.

I am saying that Bison sandbagged and stalled in whatever way he could for 5 minutes, because he is the embodiment of evil. I am also saying that Bison could never EVER be taken down by Nash in a 1v1 fight. You are talking about a character that has arguably lived for centuries, in corporeal and incorporeal form. A character that took the united efforts of every hero to defeat first and then every hero AND villain to defeat for the second time. These are FACTs supported by canon. I know when I am being a fanboy, and this isn’t one of those times. This is SF’s most recent interpretation of its canon according to Capcom.

So for those attempting to discredit me because of my “fanboyism”, note that I have been part of the SRK story threads for the last 15 years and I know more about this ridiculous canon more than I’ll ever admit to.

21164

Technically speaking, being on your knee mean you’ve been knocked down, ask any boxing ref (as boxing is where we got “knockdown” and “knock out” terms)

As result of Nash attacks Bison was downed on his knee with an hand on the floor, technically knocked down

Also the whole “feigning of be in trouble/weakness” thing sound like bullshit and we don’t have any canon support for it, as the character never behaved like that during a fight

Seem just forced wishful thinking on your side and it’s kinda stupid lol

21165

Feigning weakness = Sandbagging.

We can believably infer this conclusion from Bison’s demeanor historically and from his character story, which recalls the most recent and complete version of the encounter with Nash.

Spare me also your semantics, knockdown = fell to the floor, on his back.

You know what’s stupid? Trying to make Nash more than he is. He was a pawn and a dead man walking from the very beginning. A pawn to his government and Shadaloo indirectly, a pawn to the Illuminati, and he’s dead. He’s been dead since Guile’s SF2 ending. Yet here you are trying to uplift him into somesort of high tier American Ryu.

News for you buddy - Ken is the American Ryu. And Nash is a tragedy.

21166

Incorrect @Daemos

The novelization and other sources support that Mace outright beat Palpatine. Mace’s vaapad fighting style made him ideally suited to defeat Palpatine and his level of raw combat skill was commensurate with that of the Sith Lords.

Being a powerful Sith lord does not make one unbeatable and Mace out-dueled Palpatine, due in large part to the match-up of their individual styles. Palpatine was beat. Period.

Could all-out full-power Bison even in SFA2 beat Nash? Sure. I’d give him the fight 7/3. But…there’s those 3 fights where Bison loses. Tiers are not iron-clad. I don’t think Charlie is going to beat Bison all the time…but he certainly had the capacity to do so. Bison underestimated his foe and it cost him in that one instance where Charlie got an upperhand. Was Bison still able to outmaneuver him? Sure and that’s what makes Bison so awesome just like Palpatine . Eeven when he loses? He wins…because he plans. He schemes. He creates contingencies. That is the mark of a truly great villain and what makes a properly-written Bison on a Dr. Doom tier of awesome. Not being stronger.

BTW, regarding that discussion about Michael & Lucifer…man, I’m not traditionally religious at all but I feel like I should pitch an anime-style cartoon series or comic book based around a totally awesome interpretation of early Biblical angel stuff with a stylistic approach along the lines of Saint Seiya or something similarly colorful, energetic and cool.

21167

The novelization always takes a backseat to what is on screen though, in Star Wars canon, if there are any perceived or real discrepancies. This is as per the Lucasfilm story group and Pablo Hidalgo directly on many occasions.

Also have to add, that if we are talking one on one only, Bison clearly destroyed Nash.

As far as both Palpatine and Bison are concerned, the outcomes are clear, and due to their expert manipulation of each situation, they each won, albeit with outside interference that they themselves prearranged or set up in advance.

21168

Whatever you want dude, i don’t have particular interest at change your distorted point of view lol

And btw the correct definition of the term is not “semantics”, if as result of opponent strikes you fall on anything but your feet (knee/back/butt/face/whatever) you’ve been knocked down

About “american Ryu” never said that, is canon the he’s talented enough martial artist to win the USA Martial Arts tournament (the title that later was won by Ken), leaving that sport/MA career to do his special forces shit

Canon wise i don’t think Ken is the best american fighter, both Nash and maybe Cody can favored over him probably.
Also Alex one day, after he did some experience.

Said that, in the only two chapters they coexisted (SFA and SFV) i think Nash>Ken, and i’m not fan of any of them.
Even if must be said that SFV Nash have the Illuminati power-up as external help

21169

That issue has not been set in stone. There are still two camps on this both with great arguments for and against. I side with Palpatine because it was PERFECTLY orchestrated.

Palpatine needed Anakin to convert, he knew Anakin was coming, and he knew they were coming to arrest him. In one swift maneuver Palpatine converts potentially the most powerful force user to his side, turns every Jedi into an enemy of the republic over an “assassination attempt”, and sets in motion a plot he has been calculating for most of his life - the reclamation of the Galaxy by the Sith.

You’re telling me that Palpatine would’ve actually risked his life’s work and allow himself to actually be defeated by Mace? Palpatine wanted one thing and one thing only - Anakin to change his mind on the Jedi. This was the key to EVERYTHING. It was the only variable in this plot that was out of Palpatine’s control but he was confident enough to take the risk.

If Anakin was not a factor in this assassination scenario, Palpatine would’ve obliterated Mace. No matter how skilled he was with the saber, the darkside of the force has no harness for justice or fairplay. Someone has to die, that is the Sith way, and there is NO fucking way Palpatine would’ve been allowed himself to be killed.

I give the Palpatine x Mace match up 7-3 on a bad day (for Palps).

Nash x Bison?

A2 Nash x A2 Bison is an 8-2.

A2 Nash x SF5 Bison is a 9.5-0.5.

SF5 Nash x SF5 Bison is a 8.5-1.5

SF5 Nash’s most powerful attack didn’t even scratch Bison - literally, while Nash himself disintegrated. Bison’s body is immune to poison ffs. He is beyond human.