Arcana Heart 3, 3S:O (ignoring how shit the rest of that game is), ST:HD. It’s silly of course to use fighting games as the only comparable example because other genres have had the type of netcode fighting games should have and have had it for 10 years. And don’t say “its another genre”, as a game developer, it’s your job to improve upon your games from what you see around you. Capcom is not only behind indie companies, they are behind the industry as a whole. Just because you managed to use the netcode that should be the bare acceptable minimum doesn’t justify the fact that it is still just that, the bare acceptable minimum. It is what “average” or “shippable” should be used because to us, it’s what qualifies as “functional”. Capcom is an industry leader and they are behind the times. Average shouldn’t cut it for them. Average isn’t cutting it for Arcsystems, or even then small companies Capcom outsources to in the US, or fucking 10 man indie companies.
depends on the FPS games you play. I used to play cs1.6 and source in leagues and I was a sniper guy. That means most of the time, I killed in 1 shot and I probably landed around 70% of my snipe shots. If it was absolutely shit, it wouldn’t even be that high.
the only reason I mention it is because FPS games are 3d games too and they use roll back technology. So if roll back was impossible to use for 3d games, it wouldn’t exist in any form period which it does. So while they’re both different games, the core principal is still there. It is not impossible for 3d games to use a roll back net code when in fact roll back was born from 3d games. Not to mention that Namco had annoucned a 3d dbz fighter too to use ggpo and I don’t think a billion dollar company is going to go out on a limb and buy the rights to ggpo just to test it out. More like they tested it out first then bought the rights. You don’t get to be a billion dollar company by making rushed decisions.
what I find funny about the whole 3d thing is that roll back was used in the 3d games first!!! then you have people on here saying it doesn’t work when it was created to use within the 3d world…furthermore, you have a college graduate in ponder saying its possible. Not only is he a college graduate but he has been able to do what these billion dollar companies haven’t and that is create a good net code. Pretty sad to see 1 man beat out capcom
amco\arcsys with their plentiful resources and it would be the equivalent of osama bin landen taking out the entire US army single handed.
Not to be rude, but you should spend more time outside of SRK then.
*its funny because usually it would be the anime game people annoyed 
wrong, ggpo is that magic bullet.
I can play vampire savior from florida to california and its just barely unplayable, thats 3000+miles sir. So that means that the entire EC could play each other quite clean and same for the WC. Traversing coast to coast can be quite troublesome for ggpo but thats 3000+miles. I can’t even play sf4\mvc3 with people in my own damn city and when that is the case, GGPO is looking like a magic bullet. With people in my own state, ggpo is flawless when not being abused.
and vampire savior is NOT a slow game. Its honestly quite fast and when a fast game can be played online and accurately @ that, it says everything about the net code espeically when capcom can’t even get slow ass sf4 to be half as good as any good ggpo connection.
you actually need to know how fighting games work and why ggpo is good. Otherwise, you’re just spitting recycled garbage that you’ve read online from developers\other players. Developers will not tell you their online is trash because it affects sales. look @ how bad mvc3 is online and capcom described it as playing @ the speed of light. Not to mention they were incredibly secretive about the net code when asked about it person or in interviews. This is why you can’t trust ono\haruda when it comes to actually TALKING about their game, its their job to sell you as best as they can even if it means lying.
you haven’t read the multiple descriptions of the problems with Rollback code at all. I especially suggest you read Darkswords posts, they’re really excellent.
Low memory 10 year old games on a PC (which is all but assured to have 4x or more the ram that a PS3 or 360 has, as well as a faster (unencrypted p2p) connection speed) are an entirely different beast than modern memory hog games on a console. GGPO working well with VS or ST (altho not with 3S, heh) is an entirely different beast than rollback code working with MvC3 or Soulcalibur 5.
I should add, I wouldn’t trust anyone describing their own netcode/matchmaking product, of course they’re all going to overhype it.
That is a flat out lie and proves you don’t know enough to be talking about this subject.
Yet, current racing games like the Forza motor sports series. Which handles way more positioning, collision, and movement data then any fighter is using a rollback style netcode.
I’d like to see why it does, your interactions are substantially less complex in a racing game and there’s substantially more room to ‘fudge’ information since in most cases what the other player is exactly specifically doing isn’t so important to you. They also in general have to worry a lot less about model complexity and animation, which is a huge load on system resources.
Fighting games are lag sensitive because proper timing down to single frames necessary, and at the same time any and all rollbacks are blindingly obvious. I can’t think of any other genre where its remotely the issue it is in fighting games (which is why we have all these problems in the first place really).
There’s a reason no genre has remotely the problems fighting games have with lag, and its not just VID.
Edit: and how does it prove I don’t know what I’m talking about anyways? What specifically did I have wrong there?
Things I’m right about in what you quoted:
- Most modern PC’s have 2+ gigs of ram, both the PS3 and Xbox360 have 512 megs.
- SF2ST CvS2 VS Alpha2 or 3 any of them use infinitely less resources than a modern 3d fighting game in every way possible.
- Console connections are essentially always server based or heavily encrypted p2p, which is slower (laggier) than what you can get on a PC.
(edited again, the NAOMI board that MvC2 and MBAA use, btw, has an absolutely minute amount of resources in just about every way as compared to the current gen consoles)
The issue with Capcom is that Japan is reluctant to use GGPO. From having talked to guys like Sven, etc. the US guys are all for it, it’s just that Japan has the final say for the 2.5D titles.
The thing is that people associate matchmaking with netcode.
These games aren’t run peer to peer.
Most of the time, these are running on servers and all rollbacks are done based on the gamestate saved by the server.
Now you switched a little bit of your info around now you’re saying modern pcs not a pc from 10 years ago.
We all know Ponder’s ggpo is the savior for online fighting games but I’ve given up on seeing it in big major titles that matter.
I’m a firm believer that the prime reason they’re not using rollback netcode as others stated is due to the aging consoles and their limitations. 360,PS3 is 5,6 year old hardware running on pathetic 256 of (V)Ram, they really can’t spare much room and ponder said that in his podcast. Yet we’re seeing it in 2D games like BB skullgirls, and even 3So (No idea why KOF13 didnt go that route, SNK is stupid). They definately hear us dedicated fighting game fans scream ‘PUT IN GGPO!’ but they have to maximize their sales first which unfortunately does not prioritize rollback netcode made for the hardcores like us. Using it in HDR,3SO but not SF4/SFxT is a good indication.
I’m going to wait patiently until next-gen consoles are out. Hopefully by then developers will realize the importance of online playability, the potential of boosting their brand through properly made online capabilities DESIGNED FOR ONLINE PLAY. Making a fucking functioning UI is a first step.
FPS games aren’t frame-synced to each player. Also, the structure of the game allows more room for error when it comes to hit-detection and rollback type stuff.
Oh c’mon, My original statement was (and I quote) "Low memory 10 year old games on a PC (which is all but assured to have 4x or more the ram that a PS3 or 360 has."
How can you not read that as ‘old games that take low memory on a computer which has 4x as much ram as a PS3 or Xbox360’?
I’m sorry that you misunderstood, but the meaning is pretty clear imo.
They used to be, prior to Quake. Doom or Duke over a dial-up modem in multiplayer is completely p2p well synced 1-on-1. You might have heard of DWANGO, the ye old dial-up premium Doom matchmaking service where people go at it on 486s equipped with only 8mb RAM usually.
It’s 2011, ridiculous connections are everywhere… why should netcode suck?
But sitll, the unavoidable latency issue, you can’t patch or invent netcode to play laglessly with Japan. No one is going to do that. Ever. Too many bridging. “GGPO” isn’t the key. Moot argument?
Also GGPO netcode suggestions confuse me anyhow. Stuff built for system emulators, pasted into native game code? Not sure if serious…
RAM is always the ridiculous blanket excuse. Considering demo files of large chaotic TF2 games can reach 50mb, I doubt a 1-on-1 scrub match’s events and packets is going to be demanding for RAM to keep entirely in memory for rollback.
my counter strike example is based off a PC with 866mhz and 512mb of ram. Its not based on a modern computer by any means.
Funny, because I didn’t buy Mortal Kombat because of its crappy ass netcode. But they’re not Japanese…
Counterstrike is server based, not p2p, and the issues that FPS have to deal with (and advantages they have) are substantially different than the issues that fighting games have to deal with. Lag-related hiccups are also much less noticable on FPS’ if they’re done remotely right (and even then having played a lot of CS back in the day, especially pre-source, rollback based teleports were occasionally a massive pain in the ass anyways).
GGPO has a very vocal very dedicated following on SRK for a number of reasons. I tend to think they go more than a bit overboard too, its advocacy thinking
About ram, I dunno… I think its a reasonable issue, a lot of these games (like marvel) are straining the consoles to their very limit anyways, so the additional load of the rollback gamestates would be problematic. In general a game of TF2, even a big one, isn’t going to strain your PC that much at all.
Also again (and yes I said it earlier in this post but it bears repeating) any lag-related problems in a fighting game is substantially more noticable than in a FPS, so you have to do a lot more work in general.
Everyone I think agrees that rollback netcode would be better for fighting games *when workable*, but it seems like it's simply not a pracitcal solution for a number (not all of) the games. It's worth noting too, that the first FG when capcom was getting back into the market (HDR) used rollback netcode... so its not like Capcom is simply unwilling to use the technique.Does anyone know if XBL/PSN has more network overhead than GGPO on PC/GFWL?
I have a better overall experience with GGPO on the PC than on consoles (3S:OE just plain sucks compared to how it plays on GGPO or even ArcLive). Even on SSFIV PC I tend to get better connections against the same people I play with on console. (Yes, my ports are open etc…)
GGPO is simply applying something netcodes for other genre’s already have (rollbacks) to fighting games.
This!
Rollback tech in FPSs are called “client side prediction” indicating a client/server setup.
Also, a more important thing is, the only time an FPS has to start even thinking about rolling back is when your opponent is on screen. When they aren’t, then the system simply reacts to your actions locally first before sending the data to the server.
Yes they do, consoles force encryption that you can entirely avoid on your PC.
SF4 series doesn’t use rollback and it provides the best online fighting game experience available (BB’s netcode might by a tad superior - never played that). A couple of years ago I’d never had believed such almost lagless online fighting game play (which it definitely is here in Europe - can’t speak for the US) would be possible anytime soon.
Most people always shouting out “we need GGPO!” don’t even know what it does - they just think it magically fixes their shoddy internet connection or somehow can reduce the physical distance between New York and L.A…