If you land without doing a jump attack- You are in a recovery for 2 frames that can be cancelled with ANYTHING (including special moves and blocking) EXCEPT backdash and another jump. This is why characters without a special move that makes them ungrabbable are especially vulnerable to Abel’s U2.
If you land after doing a jump attack, you are in recovery for 2 frames where you can’t do anything, (including blocking and special moves), then an additional 2 frames where you only can’t backdash and jump again.
This also why 3 frames is the magic number for safe jumpable uppercuts- you MUST have 1 frame in the air to perform your safe jump, and 2 frames vulnerable on the ground to recover from your jump attack, making it IMPOSSIBLE to safe jump anyone with a 3 frame uppercut (this doesn’t include jump attacks that totally avoid the uppercut hitbox like Rufus divekicks… those aren’t technically safe jumps).
IMO, this is why it is IMPERATIVE that Guy players learn the timing to punish blocked uppercuts with s.HK> Bushin Chain. You have to make it painful for Ryu to guess wrongly between blocking and uppercutting on wake up in order to make up for the fact that you can’t safe jump him.
Fun fact: Because Akuma’s Super is a 0 frame grab and his Ultra is a 3 frame grab, When Akuma has a full Super and an Ultra stock, this is the metagame that plays out:
Scenario 1)
You run and slide
Jump up and do a jump attack
3a. If Akuma does a reversal Ultra, you will get hit by the Ultra.
3b. If Akuma does a reversal Super, you will beat out the Super.
Scenario 2)
You run and slide
Jump up don’t press any attack.
3a. If Akuma does a reversal Ultra, you can beat the Ultra by doing a reversal LK Tatsu, Ex Tatsu or Ex Bushin Flip.
3b. If Akuma does a reversal Super, you will eat the Super.
By and by, Forward Throw> Jump 2X is not and can never be a safe jump. The easiest safe jump set up off his forwrad throw is DashX2> Walk forward 1/4 sec> Jump MK (block the other way).
Starting the bushin chain after a close standing HK is definitely useful - however - I tried incorporating this into my game in the early days of using Guy (in ssf4) and I personally found it too risky because of the timing:
1: You see a DP whiff and you hit standing HK too early thus resetting your oponnent and all you get is that HK damage because u hit them in the air.
2: You see a DP whiff and you hit standing HK too late, opponent blocks or either DP’s you again taking you out clean!
Also, getting the timing right on Ken’s light shoryuken can be really frustrating, I sometimes tend to miss the bushin chain alone without the HK.
My personal opinion is to use the standing HK before Bushin Chain when your opponent is in major recovery, perhaps a Hard Punch Shoryuken, or EX, or Ultra.
But if you’re really consistent with the HK, and by that I mean 99% success rate on LP DP’s, then go ahead. I personally am not.
thanks for the answers guys. seems like after landing a slide knockdown on ryu it’s a mixup between jump without attacking and blocking his reversal srk in time and him not doing a reversal srk, and hopefully you did a jump attack to put him into block stun so you can begin mixup.
btw, blooddrunk just in case you were curious, bison’s j.hp causes all shoryukens to whiff after you jump in on them. he can set this up by walking farther than you would to safe jump normally after any throw. but this doesn’t work against guy, who bison has to do a traditional safejump on. bison’s j.mk is more like guy’s j.mk because it can also cause the srk to reset in the same manner, while bison’s j.hp causes the srk to whiff completely and allows you a sweet punish. <— i’ve seen kiryu actually use the j.mk in this manner, causing the srk to whiff completely and then punishing it: [media=youtube]2uehMjLOvMA#t=1m27s[/media]
i think the above might have just not reset ryu because he didn’t do his srk reversal timing. if he did it reversal timing, i think the j.mk would have just caused ryu to reset?
If you’re talking about punishing random SRKs from poke distance, then yes, I agree that timing to punish it with stand HK is too much risk for too little reward.
However, in a situation where someone uppercuts point blank and you were BAITING for the uppercut, the timing can be practiced in training mode, and its worth doing it as many times as it takes to get used to the timing. It’s actually quite funny how people are willing to spend hours in training mode to learn how to do a combo, but don’t like the idea of spending time in training mode to practice the situations to maximise your punish.
In all seriousness- being able to maximise your punish is a very important part of high level play. Momochi’s mentioned before that he spends a lot of time figuring the max damage punishes for different match ups and spends quality time practicing them.
Some players have played Zangief since 2008 and still can’t punish a whiffed DP with cr.short (whiff)> Ultra. There’s a reason why they’ll never win as consistently as Zangief players who’ve put in the time and effort to make it second nature.
crouch HK L 90[50] 100[80] 60 - 7 10 16 -10[-5] -[-3]
where the -10[-5] is frame adv on block, and -[-3] is frame adv on hit.
because of this i’ve never been 100% sure if guy is at frame advantage on a slide, even a well spaced out one at the tip so it hits as meaty as possible. if the -[-3] actually means -3, then he has the potential for up to +7 on hit, but i dunno for certain. anyone know?
As you know, the Guy’s slide has 2 parts- a knockdown portion and a non-knockdown portion. Altogether, it’s got 10 active frames.
“-10[-5] -[-3] where the -10[-5] is frame adv on block, and -[-3] is frame adv on hit.”
Simple answer- The non-bracketed portion is the WORST POSSIBLE frame advantage you can get when you hit during the knockdown portion. The bracket poriton is the WORST POSSIBLE frame advantage you can get when you hit during the non-knockdown portion.
So -10 means that if you hit at the very beginning of the slide’s 10 active frames, then you’ll be -10.
This theoretically means that if you hit at the VERY TIP of the slide, then you can get, at best +0 on block and +2 on hit.
That’s the theory part.
In practice, however, when testing out in training mode, I can’t seem to get a slide that’s better than -2 on block (I can’t seem to get the slide to be safe against SPD punish on block). Why this is so, I don’t really understand, but Tchamp mentioned something about a hitbox problem with the slide, so it might be that the hitboxes of the last 2 active frames of the slide are so bad that you can’t actually hit the opponent with it. Whether that’s really true or not, I have no idea…
Guy’s slide is pretty weird. First of all, I think it doesn’t have enough active frames. Basically, when you’re trough 3/4 of the animation, Guy can’t hit you no more – there’s no hitbox near the end.
And the second problem is that when you’ll want to time it as late as possible (aka SPD safe), another problem occurs. For example, if Zangief is crouching, he’ll normally the block the slide late. However, if he’s standing, the slide won’t hit him at all. Pretty weird.
I seriously hope some of this shit’s been fixed. Fixing the slide itself or altering others’ hitboxes or something.
The slide sometimes whiffing on a standing opponent doesn’t suprise me all that much. In all sf games, characters have traditionally been “skinnier” when standing; it’s a huge part of playing footsies. In high level play, when they know the ranges, you typically see good players stand up to avoid things that would typically connect. Granted it can be risky, but if you know your stuff it’s invaluable (to Gief players epecially). One thing to note though, I’ve heard that in SF4, your “fat” hitbox remains for a a couple of frames while you’re in your “rising” animation, so you have to stand up a bit earlier to avoid things.
Just as a common example, you can get out of Bison’s scissor pressure this way after a couple of loops because his cr.lk (which would otherwise connect) will whiff if you stand.
I couldn’t verbalize or explain it, but this is why it’s so easy to land crossup elbow on Honda when he’s crouching. Makes complete sense, I was goin NUTS tryin to figure out whey it’s free to do when he’s squatting and so much harder when he’s standing.
What do I do against opponents with well timed cross-over attacks? This is especially annoying against Zangeif since his grab comes out quick and is powerful.
Two quick questions guys: Who’s a good sub for Guy mainers? I’m thinking Akuma since I’m somewhat familiar with him already, he covers a few of Guy’s bad matchups and he’s bad ass. Any suggestions?
Also, can anyone get ch. jump in HK >> close st. HK >> st. FP >> st. MP xx Ex Hozanto to connect from midscreen? I can’t seem to get it to work unless I have an opponent with a big hitbox in the corner…
that’s funny you should ask that. a video was just posted recently of kiryu doing that exact combo on balrog midscreen… well maybe not exact… but pretty close.
[media=youtube]Oeq3n2w6sE8[/media]
also… this is the most impatient balrog i’ve ever seen, he does not like being pressured… he really loves the EX dash straight.
If you really want to cover Guy’s most difficult match ups, I think the best choice would be Chun Li. She matches up against Balrog and E. Honda really well. Personally, I like Fei Long, even if his Balrog match up is still somewhat tough.
If I’m almost stunned in a match and there’s a crossover attack coming on my wakeup, I’ll use EX Run to GTFO of there to a safe distance. I think if you are being overwhelmed by mixups or pressure or whatever, this option isn’t a bad one.
OUTSTANDING. So now I know I just sucked it up that day. Great link!
