The DHC Trick - Damage & Hit-Stun Scaling Reset

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
21

I hadn’t noticed this thread before making the video. I’m fairly certain that the glitch is based on when you DHC out of the hyper, when the next hit connects after the DHC, and how long the DHC animation lasts. You don’t need a hit before hand, as most of the testing I’ve done is with uncomboed hypers. In fact, some of the moves can’t be comboed into, like Mighty Punish, Killer Illumination, and Taking out the Trash, which I’ve verified all work, but not reliably. Mighty Punish seems to require just frame inputs. Killer Illumination and Taking out the Trash work on any hit before the last, but there is a gap on every hit where it won’t work. Other moves that I’ve DHCed into that can work (tested with Elemental Rage) are Rekkoha and Haggar Giant Press, most likely because it takes so long for them to hit.

I am really surprised that I still haven’t found a way to get Maximum Spider to work, since it scales damage like the other cinematic hypers (50% minimum damage, regardless of the character’s normal hyper minimum damage), among the other evidence that it’s a cinematic hyper.

EDIT: Oh, because it may be important, the previous hits in the video were the same combo with fewer hits on the Elemental Rage, followed by a back throw to get him out of the corner, then the combo shown in the video, starting with a back throw.

22

trag if you record a Doom combo might I suggest otg H footdive S dive dash down repeat? That combo is hilarious. 3 reps and finisher does decent damage too.

23

The thing is, the OTG with Sentinel clearly makes the combo work 100% of the time. This can be verified with simple testing. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it not work. Also, comboing into it with some form of physical hit seems to make it work 100% as well. Just doing Spencer Bionic Maneuvers into Thor whiff didn’t work in my testing (at least never consistently), where as stand H xx Bionic Maneuvers worked 100% of the time.

That being said, I’m pretty sure I noticed it working off just super xx DHC once or twice but wrote it off thinking I had mistakenly done a hit first. When I went back to confirm it worked without the hit, it wouldn’t work. Howver, the important thing to note is that the DHC’s were done after there were at least 2-hits on the combo meter.

The issue now is to find 100% repeatable results. It seems to me that combo hits are necessary, unless someone can prove that DHC’ing a cinematic after first hit can still cause this to happen. You’d have to test with Deadpool / Spencer after first hit (at least for consistency in testing).

24

I’m testing Xansan’s theory, and I think he’s correct. If you hit the opponent before the DHC, as a combo or not, it causes the scaling reset. Allowing them to recover from a “soft knockdown” state in the air or the ground requires you to hit them again.

25

After testing a bit more I agree with you on needing to hit after a certain amount of time after the DHC. It seems to be when they’re in the falling part of the tubbling animation from the cinematic hyper. The timing isn’t strict though it happens every time as long as you’ve hit them before doing it.
I completley forgot about Killer Illumination (and thought it was a level 3 for some reason) but it works every time with this as well.

Knowing this I’ve been DHC-ing from Spencer’s hyper (because he throws them up high enough) into pretty much every hyper I could think of that wouldn’t hit them until the falling down part and it worked every time. I can’t remember them all off the top of my head but the memorable one’s (because I was obviously able to combo after) were Chri’s Grenade Launcher, Chun-Li’s Hoyokusen and V-Joe’s Mach Speed. Did them all in the corner so not really sure what works mid-screen. Quite a few of them would probably just end up dashing under.

Also for some reason doing Wire Grapple (with or without the follow ups) with Spencer didn’t count as a hit to be able to do the raw hyper afterwards similar to an attack that causes them to tech in the air.

EDIT: Falling or after the tumbling state, rather. Because you can otg them as well.

26

Is this the appropriate thread to discuss the balance ramifications of this? Personally I’m not that worried about it just yet.

The 4 characters that are capable of it weren’t exactly prolific among teams that have done well in tournaments so far. Storm has mostly just been used for her DHC into OTG Hailstorms. She’s yet to impress on point just yet, though she seems to have all the tools she needs. Same with Spencer, Deadpool and X23.

They’ve all seemed pretty solid mid-tier so far. Obviously this could take them up a notch, though really it seems like every character is capable of 100%'s with enough meter or an X-Factor or aerial exchanges.

This could also be countered by teams without this capability by using Snapback on their first combo to mess up the lineup of the other team and go for a weak assist early, that kinda stuff. Or if the team revolves around it, even blowing X-Factor early to kill a key link in it.

I think if we see people dominating tournaments with these 4 on point, specifically because they nail frequent 100%'s, then we have something to worry about.

Edit: I spent a while playing around with doing Spencer’s setup into Sentinel’s HSF, and it’s very easy to do if you’re near the corner. If you’re midscreen or further, you have to do some cr.:h: -> Grapple loops, which are tough execution wise.

Also good luck trying to maneuver people towards the corner as Spencer. He’s capable, but other characters will push you around and determine where the fight is. If you happen to land a combo on someone that pushes them to the corner, you don’t need the DHC trick to kill them with the next combo.

It is pretty awesome when you mixup their next character tagging in and get the 100% KO, though.

27

OK, so… it looks like some type of hit IS needed. Let me explain.

I was testing with M.O.D.O.K. to Wolverine. I was doing KI (DP+PP) then DHC’ing into BCharge (dd+PP). I couldn’t get it to work ever, but I knew it worked because Naki (on IRC) was telling me he was doing it with Morrigan.

So then I tried L xx DP+PP. I knew it didn’t combo, but it worked. In fact, it works 100% of the time no matter WHAT hit I cancel on. So then, in the name of science, I simply hit them with L… waited a TON of time (like 2 minutes), then did DP+PP DHC dd+PP. It worked again.

If you reset the training mode screen after a hit, it will not work. It counts as a “fresh round”. If you hit them with any physical hit, and do NOT reset the training mode stage, it will work.

To further test, I threw the opponent with M.O.D.O.K. and then tried it. It DID NOT work. However, for yet ANOTHER test, I did stand L, then walked up, threw, then DP+PP DHC dd+PP, and guess what? It worked again.

Physical hit causes it to work 100% of the time. I have not been able to reproduce it on a fresh reset of the training stage (new round basically) without hitting with a physical hit. There may be other things that trigger it.

I tried to have the opponent guard the physical hit and it did NOT work.

I threw into corner and OTG’ed… then when the opponent stood up, I did DP+PP (Killer Ilumination) DHC dd+PP, and it worked again.

So, I believe that the physical hit IS needed, and that Cauldrath’s worked because he hit the character prior to that test (as you can see by his training data).

28

great job testing all of this out, trag

[edit]

Btw, when you say DHC into a non-physical hit, do you mean a super where the character coming in isn’t hitting them physically with any part of his body? So this would mean most beam hypers wouldn’t work, whereas projectile hypers (using Dorm as an example) would?

29

It’s hard to explain. It has to be independent of them. Maybe there is better wording. Sentinel “summons” his drones, so they work. Dante’s guns don’t seem to work because “he” is the one doing it.

Dormammu’s only works late into the DHC I believe once it has left his hand (which is hard to do… you need Spencer or She-Hulk to get them that high).

30

trag, did you try putting the opponent into a soft knockdown state and allowing them to recover? It seems like doing that causes the trick to fail unless you hit them again.

31

The only throws I’ve found that counts as the hit are Dormammus. Both air and ground throw seem to work (then switching to Spencer and DHC-ing to Floating Bomb).
At first I thought it was the soft knockdown affect on his ground throws that was doing it (as most throws give a hard knockdown) but I couldn’t get Doom’s forward throw to count as the hit. I thought Mag’s throws might work as well but they didn’t. Even the few command throws I tried didn’t seem to work.

What you DHC into doesn’t seem to matter other than you hit them after the going up part of the tumbling animation (although I can’t be sure without a camera slowing it down and seeing exactley but this it when it seems like). It works with Chun-Li’s Hoyokusen, V-Joe’s Mach Speed, Spiderman’s Crawler Assault, Hulk’s Gamma Crush just as a few examples. It’s easiest to get them to work in the corner and DHC-ing from Spencer so that you can wiff the first part.

Soft knockdown off a sweep or a character being tagged in for example? I’ve never noticed it to not count because the hit was soft knockdown. Assuming soft knockdown means they can tech as soon as they hit the ground rather then just lying there. What move were you using out of curiosity?

I did a bit more testing with trying Spencer’s Wire Grapple(L version) as the hit needed to get the trick to work because it didn’t seem quite as straight forward as I’d assumed yesterday.
So using Spencer and DHC-ing into Dormammu’s Floating Bomb then reseting evertime I did:
Wire Grapple wait hyper DHC on the 4th hit - unscaled damage on Floating Bomb
Wire Grapple wait hyper DHC on the 5th hit - scaled damage on Floating Bomb
st.L wait Wire Grapple wait hyper DHC on the 5th hit - scaled damage
st.L wait hyper DHC on the 5th hit - unscaled damage

This could just be that the Wire Grapple moves them just enough so you have to time the Flaoting Bomb a bit later but I tried a few different timings and still got these results. Maybe I’m going crazy.

32

Does the state persist if you hit a character and they tag out, or if you snap in another char?

33

Care to share the combo and your findings on it?

Kind of. You can do wolverine BnB and end it with an air exchange into storm, combo into Storm’s Element Hyper, DHC into Berserker Charge and combo again with Wolverine.

What I found is that after the DHC the hit stun doesn’t seem to rescale completely. You can launch them in the air but if you drill claw, dive kick the combo ends there.

Have anyone played around with this kind of setups? I mean does using Air Exchanges affects the DHC trick?

34

So there is more going on than originally thought.

Chensor and I were talking and I mentioned a second damage scaling glitch (will explain in a bit) and he said he knew of another as well. His variation had to do with double DHC’ing to put them in a spinny state allowing for a whiff and a hit. So, here’s Chen’s example:

Sentinel: DP+H (command throw), QCF+PP whiff, instant DHC to (insert any char here). This causes the first “spin state”. From here, DHC into a third char, in Chen’s case it was Spencer’s Bionic Arm (QCB+PP). This hits for 250 (full) damage… but ONLY if a physical hit came before the initial Sentinel DP+H.

I then tried Sentinel S, QCF,uf+PP whiff into instant DHC. This did not cause the spin state. They could still tech out as normal.

Next was Spencer’s DP+M (command throw). As soon as I could move, I did QCB+PP xx DHC to Wolverine Berserker Charge. The moment Wolverine was DHC’ed in, they were put in the spin state. Stand H did full damage. However, it only did full damage if a physical hit had occurred first (like every other example).

Chen mentioned he thought that it had something to do with a throw state (cinematic supers, Thor/She-Hulk/MODOK grabs, Sentinel/Spencer command grabs etc) but we couldn’t figure out why it didn’t work with Spider-Man’s Maximum Spider.

I tried other options to get the “hard knockdown” similar to Sentinel’s command throw. This included Chris QCB+H and Wesker QCF+L. When DHC’ed out of, neither of them caused the spin state.

Now, going back too Spider-Man. rogueyoshi mentioned that he and his roommate were messing around with a Hulk/Spider-Man damage reset, but couldn’t get it 100% of the time. I asked them the sequence and then went off to study it.

The sequence was: L-M~A1 (Web Ball) xx DP+L~H (Web Ball hits), L-M… etc.

I couldn’t get it to work until rogueyoshi sent me a short clip. I noticed that in his video, the Web Ball hit very low to the ground and the opponent floated to the ground while “captured”. The next hit happened as SOON as the opponent touched the ground. I was then able to reproduce it every time the timing was right. I could never get the damage reset to happen if the Web Ball hit too high in the air and the opponent popped out of the float before they touched the ground. I also couldn’t get it to happen if the Web Ball hit them when they were already on the ground (thus, not allowing the “float and touch” to happen).

This is also testable in corner with A1~H, wait till Web Ball hits, L-M… etc.

Because the Web Ball (and potentially Hyper Grav - need to test) have “throw” properties much like cinematic supers (which include 3 grab supers that can be DHC’ed out of) I decided to try some things. I comboed into Web Ball xx QCF+PP whiff DHC Wolverine Berserker Charge. This caused the spin state, however, damage was not reset.

I also tried with Spider-Man combo to Web Ball xx DHC Wesker Counter (QCB+PP), and noticed that if the opponent was in the Web Ball, Wesker couldn’t DHC out. I then tried QCF+PP and I couldn’t DHC out of that either… but only when they were in Web Ball. Something strange there… or it may have been the crap pad I was using at work (makes less noise than a stick). However, outside of the Web Ball, I could DHC all of the time.

I’ll do more testing when I get home, but this is something that I’d like to get even more eyes on and maybe we can find other applications.

35

Yeah, I mentioned it a couple times before, but trag never mentioned it here. Doing a TAC causes scaling to carry over after the DHC, but I haven’t investigated exactly how this works yet.

36

OK, after talking with Chensor and testing about 50 different variations, here are the findings.

  1. In every test case, the physical hit is always needed during that “round”.
  2. After causing the spin state, the next hyper activation must MISS

It seems that the spin state is caused by a “throw / captured” flag that isn’t being reset. Cinematic Supers, Grab Supers, and even Grabs can put them into this spin state. Note: this is not the same spin state as Dante’s QCF+M~QCF+M because they land on their feet. It must be a “hard” knockdown.

Examples:

Cinematic Super xx DHC = Spin State

  • Deadpool Cuttin’ Time DHC any hit except 5th
  • Storm Elemental Rage DHC any hit during hurricane part (final hit does not work)
  • Tons of other examples in first post.

Amaterasu’s Throw, Okami Shuffle (must NOT hit) xx DHC = Spin State
You can get damage boost here if BOTH supers miss. So, the most obvious example is: Throw, Okami Shuffle xx DHC (before super hits) Wolverine Berserker Charge, Stand H… (full damage… if opponent was hit with “physical hit” prior to DHC sequence).

Before you ask… YES, you can Okami SLOW as the first super, then DHC to a whiff super (or Sentinel’s) and get SLOW + DMG BOOST!

You can also do this sequence off Amaterasu Counter. Amaterasu Counter, QCB+PP (before they hit ground), DHC to a whiff super (or Sentinel’s) and get SLOW + DMG!

More info to come.

37

Hmmm, I’ve gotten some variable dmg DHCing to Hulks Gamma Quake (DP super) (not a physical hit) from X-23s Weapon X or MODOKs Killer Illumunation. Could be because of this (or just because the rocks don’t hit the same).

38

I don’t think it’s just the spin state as such. What looks like is happening is there’s a specific sort of floaty state (with the hard knockdown as you said) and when you DHC during you get a spin state that you can get unscaled damage off.

And as you said you can get this spin off Hyper Grav but also off Magneto’s throws.

Dormammu’s air throw looks like the kind of state you should be able to DHC during and get the spin, but it isn’t happenning. Maybe because it counts as a hit to get this trick to work might have something to do with it.

You can get the spin state from Spiderman’s Web Throw as well but I had to use Maximum Spider then DHC because Crawler Asssault seems to slow to be able to DHC while they’re still floating in the air. However just like Web Ball this didn’t get unscaled damage.

39

Figured out the damage scaling DHC trick with she hulks air grab and sent drones. You need to do one of those moves trag mentions in his coments just a bit after the 9th hit of the air grab. Here is an example.
Without scaling. [media=youtube]OUvJ6DxC8TA[/media]
with scaling [media=youtube]8Tjgzzc_5vE[/media]

40

I think Spider-Man just has all his flags set properly. I don’t think there is any way to get it to work with his moves aside from having him come in and miss a super (after someone else has set up the spin state).

For now, after discussion with Chensor and also testing about 100 variations, it seems that after any move that puts you in a captured state (cinematic supers, super grabs, grabs that cause hard knockdown, certain assists), if a DHC follows, they will be put into the spin state.

So you have cinematic supers (Deadpool, Spencer, X-23, Storm, and even Spider-Man’s).
Grab supers (MODOK, She-Hulk, Thor, which are also cinematic in nature… they need to hit to execute fully)
Capture Assists (Web Ball, Hyper Grav)
Grabs (Amaterasu’s, and potentially a few more)

In the first 2 cases, this state is automatic. You simply need to perform a hyper during one of these moves and the spin state will ensue. So, to get it to happen from a Cinematic Super/Grab Super, you need to DHC (as mentioned, you need a hyper to activate during this captured state).

During Capture Assists, you must perform the Super while they are still captured. This works with both Web Ball and Hyper Grav.

This is basically the same as during throws that cause the hard knockdown. They are still in the “captured” state until they touch the ground. Activating a super before they hit the ground also causes the spin.

Now, once the opponent is IN the spin state, another super must miss. Once this happens, you get a damage reset. There are 2 caveats to this:

a) Sentinel / Dormammu (needs to hit late) count as non-hitting supers (maybe others as well)
b) Does not work with Spider-Man under any circumstances