The death of fighting games… A personal journey that hopefully can help MvC:I?

[AirLancer]

Lower execution barriers is never the way to go in my book, though that’s not an endorsement of unnecessarily difficult execution barriers either.

I’ve seen people stop trying to learn KOF 13 because they couldn’t do cl.C f+A. That’s literally just pressing a close standing heavy punch, and then pressing forward and light punch. Hell, once things get reduced down to just one or two buttons required for specials and supers, people will probably complain about timing being too strict (if they weren’t already) or games being too fast. 50/50s are unfair, okizeme is cheap, throws are unfair, juggling is unfair, links are unfair, combos are unfair, hitstun is unfair, blocking too much is unfair.

Literally any mechanic or skill that can be used to one’s advantage, people will take it as a reason to decide that the game is bad and that they can’t play it, even down to just using your characters’ attacks. Or as you may often see people complain “just spamming the same thing over and over.” Every time an element is removed to appease to the mythical casual crowd that’ll suddenly pick up easier fighting games seriously, the core players are just left with shallower and shallower games.

[crotchpuncha]

Partially it’s about execution. I am a fighting game scrub and i can do combos that deal 500 damage.

The real issue is strategy. When does it come into play ?
Most people play this game in a way it isn’t supposed to be played. For 90% of the player base this game is pure auto pilot. The moment they realize that the other player doesn’t know how to counter a certain move, they will repeat that move till they win that match. (That is also the moment most beginners call a game “cheap” and quit).

Fighting games aren’t clear , they seem to be too vague , difficult to understand. Players can’t tell what is happening. Why should I do move “A” and not “B” , “C” , “D” or “E”. In short, there is a HUGE information gap. Its like playing chess but you don’t know which piece does what and what it is meant for. There is no strategy for a specific “Situation” and in case of beginners there is no strategy for any situation. It is just random stuff, till one finds something he can use and repeat constantly.

There is loads of strategy in fighting games but sadly people like me can’t access it. All we can do is use some gimmick. Who ever has the better gimmick wins. For us its like playing chess and not knowing why we are moving pieces. One guy will win eventually but the win/loss is meaningless.

Jesus dude stop sucking and study your characters and find out what works and why you choose A over B C D and E.

Doing the same thing over and overt because it works is not playing wrong, it’s absolutely playing right.

[learis1]

It seems like the majority of the OP was about execution barriers. Marvel definitely has some tough execution in it. But I think the future is looking better in this department. Capcom seems be moving more towards leniency of execution if SFV is any indication.

A part of me is glad about this because it means I can focus more on strategy without having as big a wall of execution to hurdle over. But a part of me is also worried about this…

I sadly gave up on SFV for one main reason: homogenization. Many of the characters felt rather similar in their strategies and frame data. I feel like Capcom was too safe in making SFV and they lost a lot of the heart and soul of the game. I sincerely hope this is not the case with MVCI. I want each character in that game to feel creative and unique. Hopefully execution considerations don’t detract from the creativity and uniqueness behind each character.

[Pertho]

Names withheld to protect something or other:

Traditional fighting game companies can learn from Ubisoft’s FOR HONOR

The best modern fighting game is not produced by any traditional fighting game developer. Look out Capcam, NAMCO, Netherealms, SNK, Atlus etc. etc. etc. because here comes FOR HONOR by Ubisoft.

We can look to traditional fighting game companies to demonstrate arrested development. We can look to Capcom, NAMCO, and many other traditional fighting game developers and see they are woefully behind any progressive ideas to move the fighting game genre forward.

For decades players have asked these traditional fighters to be progressive, push the fighting game mechanics to new areas of fun and exploration.

However fighting game developers soon discovered changing the core-gameplay typically change the game too drastically. So drastically it was no longer the same game.

These drastic changes meant hardcore players might not return to the franchise. Also drastic changes meant it was financially safer to give the niche fan-base what they wanted, the same basic game, with only a small variance in gameplay.

What results is a genera tailoring to the hardcore, slowly leaving behind the casual market (80% of the player base left behind) and arresting the development of any progressive ideas and or exploratory aspects for the genre of fighting games.

Thank god for Ubisoft FOR HONOR. Ubisoft’s game sheds light on the woefully behind fighting game genre.

Where to start on the juxtaposition?

My first thought is FOR HONOR was a game NAMCO should have developed years ago (Looking at you Soul Calibur) But lets take a closer look on why traditional fighting game companies can learn a thing or two or a dozen from Ubisoft.

Fist Ubisoft proves a 3rd person camera works for fighting games. That is a camera behind the player. Imagine a Street fighter, or Tekken, any your favorite fighter done this way? The visuals are more spectacular.

This 3rd person view, allows for fuller 3D character movement, this is important is it brings the stage environment more into life. This allows for the “stages” to play even a more important role.

Such as ring outs, yes we know traditional fighting games have ring outs, however FOR HONOR ring out locations are ever changing dynamic places on the staging. Allot of this owing to the 3rd person camera angle.

Also the different terrain heights adds to the fun, as one player fights on the stairs and the other player below on the ground. Again other traditional fighting games (Tekken 4 comes to mind) played around with terrain variants, however the negative blow-back from players on the overall Tekken 4 experience was overwhelming.

Once bitten twice shy NAMCO decided to go back to basics in Tekken 5. To say it another way, they decided to play it safe. So have Capcom and many other companies.

But playing it safe, while understandable to satisfy the hardcore, has left the genres with little to no exploration to further the genre. It’s really to bad too, as some aspects of Tekken 4 could have been worked out over time to move the genre forward, but as they say it’s arrested-development-history.

Again FOR HONOR not only pushes the genres forward it does so in so many directions it’s hard to catalogue all of the differences.

So I’ll try to rapid fire through many of them:

• The game takes into account the 99% of players today play on CONTROL PADS. And thus is FULLY accessible to the 99% the VAST majority of player base.
• TEAM PLAY! Talk about a lagging behind the times for traditional fighting game developers! REALLY over 25 years of gameplay and we only had at best a “tag” option… FOR HONOR supports teams of 2, 3 and 4 players, a total of 8 players at the same time!
• A capture the flag element of 3 zones to capture, more TEAM PLAY aspects!
• A solo player CAMPAIGN. Why traditional fighting game companies put little to no effort in campaigns anymore is beyond my understanding

Now don’t get me wrong, the traditional fighting game companies do have a secret sauce that cant be easily replaced. High quality versus gameplay mechanics, iconic characters but what traditional fighting game companies product offering is old and stale.

It’s like comparing the features of a 1970 Camero to the 2016 Camero with anti-lock brakes, power windows, air-conditioned seats, the 1970 car just doesn’t even have those options available.

Is the 1970 Camero still fun to drive, yes sure it is, however you get more with the 2016 Camero. And the 2016 Camero is advancing, pushing forward… The 1970’s Camero is stuck in time.

And that’s the problem with the traditional fighting game conundrum, change to 2016 design, but risk loosing those people who only prefer driving the classics.

I for one am ready to move forward, hopefully Capcam, NAMCO and others are ready too.

[Hecatom]

Names withheld to protect something or other:

Traditional fighting game companies can learn from Ubisoft’s FOR HONOR

The best modern fighting game is not produced by any traditional fighting game developer. Look out Capcam, NAMCO, Netherealms, SNK, Atlus etc. etc. etc. because here comes FOR HONOR by Ubisoft.

We can look to traditional fighting game companies to demonstrate arrested development. We can look to Capcom, NAMCO, and many other traditional fighting game developers and see they are woefully behind any progressive ideas to move the fighting game genre forward.

For decades players have asked these traditional fighters to be progressive, push the fighting game mechanics to new areas of fun and exploration.

However fighting game developers soon discovered changing the core-gameplay typically change the game too drastically. So drastically it was no longer the same game.

These drastic changes meant hardcore players might not return to the franchise. Also drastic changes meant it was financially safer to give the niche fan-base what they wanted, the same basic game, with only a small variance in gameplay.

What results is a genera tailoring to the hardcore, slowly leaving behind the casual market (80% of the player base left behind) and arresting the development of any progressive ideas and or exploratory aspects for the genre of fighting games.

Thank god for Ubisoft FOR HONOR. Ubisoft’s game sheds light on the woefully behind fighting game genre.

Where to start on the juxtaposition?

My first thought is FOR HONOR was a game NAMCO should have developed years ago (Looking at you Soul Calibur) But lets take a closer look on why traditional fighting game companies can learn a thing or two or a dozen from Ubisoft.

Fist Ubisoft proves a 3rd person camera works for fighting games. That is a camera behind the player. Imagine a Street fighter, or Tekken, any your favorite fighter done this way? The visuals are more spectacular.

This 3rd person view, allows for fuller 3D character movement, this is important is it brings the stage environment more into life. This allows for the “stages” to play even a more important role.

Such as ring outs, yes we know traditional fighting games have ring outs, however FOR HONOR ring out locations are ever changing dynamic places on the staging. Allot of this owing to the 3rd person camera angle.

Also the different terrain heights adds to the fun, as one player fights on the stairs and the other player below on the ground. Again other traditional fighting games (Tekken 4 comes to mind) played around with terrain variants, however the negative blow-back from players on the overall Tekken 4 experience was overwhelming.

Once bitten twice shy NAMCO decided to go back to basics in Tekken 5. To say it another way, they decided to play it safe. So have Capcom and many other companies.

But playing it safe, while understandable to satisfy the hardcore, has left the genres with little to no exploration to further the genre. It’s really to bad too, as some aspects of Tekken 4 could have been worked out over time to move the genre forward, but as they say it’s arrested-development-history.

Again FOR HONOR not only pushes the genres forward it does so in so many directions it’s hard to catalogue all of the differences.

So I’ll try to rapid fire through many of them:

• The game takes into account the 99% of players today play on CONTROL PADS. And thus is FULLY accessible to the 99% the VAST majority of player base.
• TEAM PLAY! Talk about a lagging behind the times for traditional fighting game developers! REALLY over 25 years of gameplay and we only had at best a “tag” option… FOR HONOR supports teams of 2, 3 and 4 players, a total of 8 players at the same time!
• A capture the flag element of 3 zones to capture, more TEAM PLAY aspects!
• A solo player CAMPAIGN. Why traditional fighting game companies put little to no effort in campaigns anymore is beyond my understanding

Now don’t get me wrong, the traditional fighting game companies do have a secret sauce that cant be easily replaced. High quality versus gameplay mechanics, iconic characters but what traditional fighting game companies product offering is old and stale.

It’s like comparing the features of a 1970 Camero to the 2016 Camero with anti-lock brakes, power windows, air-conditioned seats, the 1970 car just doesn’t even have those options available.

Is the 1970 Camero still fun to drive, yes sure it is, however you get more with the 2016 Camero. And the 2016 Camero is advancing, pushing forward… The 1970’s Camero is stuck in time.

And that’s the problem with the traditional fighting game conundrum, change to 2016 design, but risk loosing those people who only prefer driving the classics.

I for one am ready to move forward, hopefully Capcam, NAMCO and others are ready too.

Names should never be witheld

[S00perCam]

I agree on the for honor sentiment entirely the game industry is getting stale 2 years ago Rocket league put the sports genre on notice last year Overwatch put FPS games on notice and I’m glad it’s Fighting games turn New gameplay fresh gameplay. SF 30 year anniversary is this year and (while I’m admittedly excited for it) we are getting yet ANOTHER revision of SF2.

If MVCI shakes things up and makes it accessible or whatever I’ll be with it. I loved the ABCS System for MVC3 and if they dumb it down further good. This fighting games are overly complicated and too samey conversation has been going on too long, it’s not everyone else that’s the problem it’s the games.

[Raging_Zoroark]

I really don’t understand what some people have against tradicional fighting games. I mean, it’s nice to have games like For Honor and Smash Brothers (more options are always welcome), but tradicional FGs also have their place among the gamers. There are a lot of games that already offers a more casual experience, no need to change (or eliminate) the ones aimed at competitive play.

And lol to the “fighting games getting stale”. People are so blind at what really happens in the matches that it really baffles me. They sound like my parents: “Dunno how you can sit there for hours just trading blows with someone”.

[Pertho]

Sometimes it feels like the people who have played the least amount of games are the ones asking for more shake ups.

Also lol overwatch. Overwatch changed the game by adding cosplay to TF2.

[S00perCam]

Typical question my cred or act like I’m stupid response I expect from SRK. The only reason I deal with this insufferable group of man-children is because I love fighting games as they are and as they have been. Change gon’ come motherfuckers.

[Evolution169]

I agree on the for honor sentiment entirely the game industry is getting stale 2 years ago Rocket league put the sports genre on notice last year Overwatch put FPS games on notice and I’m glad it’s Fighting games turn New gameplay fresh gameplay. SF 30 year anniversary is this year and (while I’m admittedly excited for it) we are getting yet ANOTHER revision of SF2.

If MVCI shakes things up and makes it accessible or whatever I’ll be with it. I loved the ABCS System for MVC3 and if they dumb it down further good. This fighting games are overly complicated and too samey conversation has been going on too long, it’s not everyone else that’s the problem it’s the games.

I don’t see how anyone can think fighters as a genre have gotten stale. SF, GG, KI, MK, Tekken, DOA, SC, and Marvel are all very different gameplay experiences within the genre. Obviously many share the same mechanics, but it’s not like they feel the like clones of the same game.

Overwatch is just doing what TF2 has been doing for 10 years. For Honor has not proven itself to be a serious fighting game, so let’s see how that discussion plays out before declaring it to be the next big fighter.

And Rocket League didn’t put the sports genre on notice because the sports genre is largely based on actual real life sports. If you’re a huge soccer fan, you’re going to want to play FIFA over Rocket League. I personally love Rocket League and hate sports games.

[S00perCam]

I agree on the for honor sentiment entirely the game industry is getting stale 2 years ago Rocket league put the sports genre on notice last year Overwatch put FPS games on notice and I’m glad it’s Fighting games turn New gameplay fresh gameplay. SF 30 year anniversary is this year and (while I’m admittedly excited for it) we are getting yet ANOTHER revision of SF2.

If MVCI shakes things up and makes it accessible or whatever I’ll be with it. I loved the ABCS System for MVC3 and if they dumb it down further good. This fighting games are overly complicated and too samey conversation has been going on too long, it’s not everyone else that’s the problem it’s the games.

I don’t see how anyone can think fighters as a genre have gotten stale. SF, GG, KI, MK, Tekken, DOA, SC, and Marvel are all very different gameplay experiences within the genre. Obviously many share the same mechanics, but it’s not like they feel the like clones of the same game.

Overwatch is just doing what TF2 has been doing for 10 years. For Honor has not proven itself to be a serious fighting game, so let’s see how that discussion plays out before declaring it to be the next big fighter.

And Rocket League didn’t put the sports genre on notice because the sports genre is largely based on actual real life sports. If you’re a huge soccer fan, you’re going to want to play FIFA over Rocket League. I personally love Rocket League and hate sports games.

That’s the problem you cant see the other side of it. You and I might see SF and it’s fundamentalist gameplay, GG with all of its options and freedom, KI with its mindgames, MK with it’s aggression, Tekken with the insane spacing. We see all the intricacies of the game and the excitement that comes from that but to the people who never got into it they see 2 characters walking back and forth on a screen. While there’s more to it and you know it and I know it it just isn’t going to interest the people it doesn’t interest. It’s not a square peg round hole situation either fighting is a broad term it’s not like a sub genre of strategy like card games for example where there has to be cards, it doesn’t have to be 2 lifebars side by side characters as long as concepts like spacing, moral, abare, okizeme etc can be applied and it interests people I’m with it. Variety is the spice of life and like mine hot goddamnit.

…it feels like the people who have played the least amount …

make the TF2 Overwatch comparison its dumber than the purposely hyperbolic Soul Calibur For Honor comparison, if you’ve played either game then you know they just aren’t all that alike other than there are classes.

And to address your point about Rocket League, That’s my point exactly you don’t like traditional format sports games but Rocket League took a different approach there fore you like Rocket League. For Honor for example has gotten people who don’t even like Fighting games to play one.

I mean I get it this is SRK no one likes ANYTHING not even Street Fighter every Street fighter since Hyper Fighting has been completely shat on as the current game up until the new version dropped except SF3 which has never gotten it’s due.

[Evolution169]

@S00perCam

OW and TF2 are both class-based, arcade, team shooters. OW just takes it way further with the amount of classes and what they can do.

I don’t believe RL is a sports game in the same sense that FIFA is a sports game. Sure, you play a sport, but it’s nothing like an actual sports game. That’s like me saying Fighting Vipers and UFC should be in the same genre because they are both cage fighting. It’s dishonest.

[Pertho]

I forgot how much of a terrible poster s00per is.

See the people that complain about us being closed minded dont get it: we came here because we lime a certain style of fighting games. This place isnt about any random combat game; thats not what this scene is about.

For Honor is doing its own thing and people like it? Great for it and its player. They get to play something new and different. Same with Smash. The problem is that there is this insistence that somehow this place has to bend over backwards because of some ultimate argument that has to be settled because of w/e dumb ass moniker was given to the collected communities after arcades mostly ceased operations in the United States. Not only do our people in SRK already playing it, we also don’t have to bend over backwards for something different. This place was set up to keep a style of gaming alive. That’s what makes it special. If other forms or styles of games come up, good for them. Are we asking the Unreal Tournament players to allow FGs because our tournaments are also 1v1?

“Why don’t you guys play this other game that shares some similarities with the ones you play?”

Because we like the ones that came for.

Edit: get to add some additional things on keyboard so lets roll with it:

For Honor is not similar to SC. As far as I know nobody in here has made that comparison except you. Instead its closer to Bushido Blade which a lot of us want a sequel to. Calling it a fighting game, as it applies to this community, is a fucking stretch when there are 5 people fighting. At that point its basically WoW pvp without casters. If you’re suggesting that 1v1 WoW PVP is a fighting game call Blizzard and get that shit at Evo.

[Robotic]

For Honor metagame is to never attack, because you’ll get your ass countered. Running a tournament for that shit would be a nightmare.

[S00perCam]

I love you too Pertho.

It’s not about being close minded it’s about accepting the truth. Fighting games as we know it are dying and have been doing so for a while. I’m going to love and buy everyone that comes out. Let it sink in though:

Pokken which is basically a Naruto party fighter with Pokémon, POKEMON, almost kicked MARVEL out of the EVO lineup. Windjammers was almost an EVO game, Fucking Nidhogg idk what it even is supposed to be, was nominated for the lineup. There are 2 Smash games In the line up. When I joined on my first account whenever CVS2 EO came out there would have been blood in the streets over that shit. You cant get much further from a traditional EVO lineup than what we have. Fuck 1v1 WoW PvP might get nominated next year if you keep talking.

Wiz is going to follow the money he only keeps getting better at it with time. Easy games make money period.

[NoChart]

As many have said, execution barriers aren’t the issue. The “simple” controls mode included in such fighters as MvC3 and GG don’t solve the problem in any appreciable way. New players will get bopped because they get zoned-out, blocked wrong, got punished for throwing out unsafe moves, and failed to adapt; not because they got “out-executed”. You need to instill the strategies of high-level play, and Arksys/ Reverge Labs have come the closest to addressing this(mission mode and tutorial respectively)- though it’s still not perfect. Most casuals will still take the L too many times and end up quitting before they even try learning the game.

My suggestion is simple: Don’t expect everyone to dig for the answers elsewhere. Lead a horse(casual) to water. After a match, have the game itself offer to inform the player why they may have lost. Have a system in place that reviews the match-up in pure numbers and counts up how many jump-ins and overheads they ate, how often they threw out unsafe normals/specials, how many times they were walked into the corner, etc. Use that raw data to offer up a “Review Match” button for an in-game explanation that covers core concepts in quick snippets.

Press: “Review Match”

“You got anti-aired 8 times that match. A strong opponent will recognize your habits and punish you accordingly.”

Anti-air explanation follows.

[PSYCH0J0SH]

I love you too Pertho.

It’s not about being close minded it’s about accepting the truth. Fighting games as we know it are dying and have been doing so for a while. I’m going to love and buy everyone that comes out. Let it sink in though:

Pokken which is basically a Naruto party fighter with Pokémon, POKEMON, almost kicked MARVEL out of the EVO lineup. Windjammers was almost an EVO game, Fucking Nidhogg idk what it even is supposed to be, was nominated for the lineup. There are 2 Smash games In the line up. When I joined on my first account whenever CVS2 EO came out there would have been blood in the streets over that shit. You cant get much further from a traditional EVO lineup than what we have. Fuck 1v1 WoW PvP might get nominated next year if you keep talking.

Wiz is going to follow the money he only keeps getting better at it with time. Easy games make money period.

With the exception of Windjammer and Nidhogg, all the other games are fighting games. You need to be more open minded that’s all. The genre is broadening if anything.

Despite what all the SRK gutter trolls say, Smash is for all intents and purposes a proper fighting game and it can’t be defined as anything else. It has everything that other fighting games have. Mixups, grab games, resets, tech rolls and a complex meta. It belongs at Evo. The major difference is that the stages play a critical role as well. The fact that it has a lot of options for casual players doesn’t make it any less of a fighting game. Smash doesn’t fit any other category, it’s not an FPS, it’s not an RTS, it’s not competitive Tetris. It is a real fighting game, even if SF and Marvel fanboys like to shit all over it, it nonetheless is the same type of game.

[Raging_Zoroark]

Sometimes it feels like the people who have played the least amount of games are the ones asking for more shake ups.

Makes sense. People that don’t enjoy fighting games want them to become non fighting games, so they can (maybe) enjoy it (which, for the majority of them, means playing for 2 weeks and forgetting about the game’s existence afterwards). Again, I find extremely positive to have games like For Honor and Smash, because it adds options to the market and there’s always the possibility that someone that plays those games may become interested in fighting games in the future (I used to play smash before getting into FGs).

But when people start to suggest a huge overhaul to already estabilished franchises, saying shit like this:

First Ubisoft proves a 3rd person camera works for fighting games. That is a camera behind the player. Imagine a Street fighter, or Tekken, any your favorite fighter done this way? The visuals are more spectacular.

…that’s where the problem lies. Seriously motherfucker? You are suggesting a MAJOR change to a fighting game (3d person camera) that would change the gameplay in a radical and drastic way, and visuals, FUCKING VISUALS, is the first thing that comes to your mind? GTFO, you don’t have any idea what are you talking about.

Casual market is bigger than hardcore market? Sure thing bro. But if wasn’t for the hardcore EVO wouldn’t exist, FGs wouldn’t survive for that long and awesome things like Daigo’s parry moment wouldn’t exist either. I’m sure that a lot of people enjoy watching high level tournaments, even if they aren’t invested in playing FGs seriously (like my brother).

Also @Pertho where this huge scrubquote comes from?

[Evolution169]

Pokken which is basically a Naruto party fighter with Pokémon, POKEMON, almost kicked MARVEL out of the EVO lineup.

Pokken was at EVO last year, so it makes sense that it developed a hardcore fanbase and they wanted it back. The way I see it, a game from 2011 with terrible online play and that was discontinued for years beat out Pokken. That tells me that people still aren’t sick of UMvC3.

Windjammers was almost an EVO game, Fucking Nidhogg idk what it even is supposed to be, was nominated for the lineup.

Neither of those games came close to being at EVO.

There are 2 Smash games In the line up. When I joined on my first account whenever CVS2 EO came out there would have been blood in the streets over that shit. You cant get much further from a traditional EVO lineup than what we have.

I don’t know about Smash 4, but Melee is far from casual friendly. And Smash games have been using the same formula for 18 years. They aren’t fresh.

Fuck 1v1 WoW PvP might get nominated next year if you keep talking.

I’m sure there is a line that can be crossed and WoW PVP is way past it.

[S00perCam]

Pokken was at EVO last year, so it makes sense that it developed a hardcore fanbase and they wanted it back. The way I see it, a game from 2011 with terrible online play and that was discontinued for years beat out Pokken. That tells me that people still aren’t sick of UMvC3.

Wait are you going to sit here dogpile on me for saying we should be open minded about fighters and then tell me with a straight face that Pokken should have beaten the bell of the Ball Marvel Vs Capcom for a spot at EVO the event that Marvel has made? GTFO just GTFO

Neither of those games came close to being at EVO.

They came closer than Legit games like CVS2, 3s, Darkstalkers, or Virtua Fighter 5

I don’t know about Smash 4, but Melee is far from casual friendly. And Smash games have been using the same formula for 18 years. They aren’t fresh.

I’m not questioning Smashes validity at all I was never one of those guys

I’m sure there is a line that can be crossed and WoW PVP is way past it.

Maybe but Pokken Nidhogg and Windjammers bring us closer to that line for sure.

This conversation is starting to become one of double standards I feel which is great. I feel the OP shouldn’t have been shat on like he was and has a point.