Dear delirium, please stop liking posts that have incorrect information in them such as the one above me.
Thank you.
His best string is stand short stand short. Now with the new changes, bison no longer loses to downback with the red health removal buff to grabs. People will be more inclined to tech/press a bad button when bison is up in their face. I’ll take that over abc buffer spam anyway.
Also there are PLENTY of safe ways for bison to tag out like spaced psycho crusher, scissor kick, ect. Ex not required.
I think Abel is another one who can punish blocked chain but w/e.
Bison should be very good in 2013 while getting rid of abc frauds if it is removed
Hi all, new to the Bison boards, I’m thinking of taking him up in 2013 as Guile got nerfed to oblivion. Quick question: is cl. LK, cl. LK, st. MP xx MK Scissor Kicks going to be a viable combo in 2013, given that st. MP’s startup is going from 8 to 5?
It wouldn’t surprise me if standing MK-HK gets made less safe, seeing how all these other boost chains have been made less safe across the board. Losing that would be a huge blow, but I think we’d be able to adapt.
This is such an amazing change for the engine. Bison’s walkspeed makes tick throws more viable than most characters, although the throw range is still shit… but hey, now we can walk forward for 2 more frames so there’s less chance of it whiffing! I guess. But yeah, Bison’s going to be stealing everyone’s red health all day every day.
It will definitely be viable. I don’t use MK scissors that much because it’s fuckin hard as hell to hit the crouching MP xx HP Psycho Crusher juggle afterwards. LK scissors does more damage without the juggle, and is safe on block (MK scissors isn’t TERRIBLE but it’s like… -5 I think? still punishable by jab into chain). Of course, your best meterless damage option if you can’t hit the juggle after MK Scissors would be to just cancel the standing MP into HP Psycho Crusher… (Psycho Crusher is also better for keeping damage up for tag cancel combos since it’s only 1 hit)
Thanks for the answer! I agree that I think Bison is definitely on his way up in 2013. The throw buff is huge, the possibility that his st. MK > st. HK chain is going to remain a safe footsies tool, and his incredible walkspeed are going to be real assets. I think aside from crossups and jump-ins, his main tool is going to be cl. LK, cl. LK, hit-confirmed into st. MP and launcher. That’s going to be a 2-frame link (3 if you plink), and it doesn’t need charge (which you most likely won’t have if you’re doing walk-forward pressure.)
On crossup, I think I’m going to go for cr. LK, cr. LK, st. MP xx MK Scissors, cr. MP xx HP Psycho Crusher. If I confirm a block, you’re at +1 with st. MP, so you can keep up the pressure from there. Either that or get straight in there with cl. LKs and go for a tick throw.
I get what you’re saying about it being hard to connect the cr. MP after MK Scissors, but hold on to hope! I have a suspicion that when st. MP is buffed, you’ll be able to connect that instead of the cr. MP, which would make it significantly easier.
Also, the fact that Bison still has his get-out-of-jail-free card in EX Psycho Crusher while everyone else is losing theirs (no safe tag-cancelled DPs, and Alpha Counters are now a lot more risk vs. reward.) means that Bison’s defensive tools are getting better too.
another cool thing is people respect ex psycho so much, half the time you just block and they jump back letting you out for free, lol. And sometimes jumping back makes them get hit because it’s not like ssf4. You can usually ex psycho out on reaction when your opponent confronts you on wakeup.
Wow, harsh. You didn’t even answer my question, which puts me in an awkward position of asking again and hoping you’d answer.
If you were talking about my post being incorrect because I said he has no safe chancels to ex, I meant he has no safe way to get out if you do a blocked ABC chain. His only options are ex psycho or ex scissors, both of which are very punishable. I realize that scissor kick is almost a completely safe tag in opportunity, but that wasn’t what I was talking about because delirium was asking about what the implications are to his ABC boost.
If you were talking about my post being incorrect because of my frame trap part, I’ll take that and ask again: what are his good frame traps?
Basically, while there isn’t any reason necessarily to respect me since I’m just another random guy on the internet, I think it isn’t cool to say that I’m wrong without explaining what is right. That’s the way I learn, and consequently, that’s how I stop posting incorrect information.
I’m not so sure about this. I don’t think standing MP’s hitbox extends low enough to catch them before they hit the ground. Sure hope I’m wrong, though!
Except for his teleport getting worse 8 extra frames might not seem like the end of the world, but it could make a major difference if your opponent is trying to bait it. Of course we do have other defensive options, like the EX PC and of course EX Devil’s Reverse, so…
Another thing that I think is going to help make Bison’s throw game even better is the recovery on forward rolls. Other than like, ending a combo with a slide and then doing a Devil’s Reverse to try to catch them when they roll forward (which even then can get beaten by certain DP’s/lariat, or if you do the wrong strength DR you could end up missing completely and put yourself in danger…), rolls have always been a problem because they screw up his charge and you can’t really “corpse hop” with anything other than Psycho Crusher (which has always been better for its sneaky crossup… but that of course can also be completely mitigated by a forward roll). It’s always frustrating to put someone in a corner and have them roll out with no guaranteed way to stop them from doing it, other than jumping back with an ambiguous jump attack. And then of course if they didn’t roll, you look like an idiot jumping back after you put them in the corner. But now… oh, you want to roll forward on wakeup? Guess you weren’t feeling too attached to all that red life you had built up…
awww im sorry, I read it as you can’t sk or psycho tag out safely lmao. Yeah… if you cancel your blocked abc, chances are you will still get punished, but for some reason i found mashing short with juri after I do that makes it safe depending on who im tagging against but dont count on it lol. Sorry for misunderstanding
btw
I actually played Bison ON POINT the other night without using abc buffering and i literally won just as much if not more. A lot of Tekken characters just die to roundhouse, the range on it is ridiculous, guess I forgot how silly the range is as a poke because was too busy forwarding people in the face to launcher. And again stand short stand short is his best pressure/frame trap. You press a button during that you get blown up. You don’t press a button, you get grabbed, and now in 2013 you lose your red life. Pick your poison. You mash srk, chances are I’ll bait that because I don’t mindlessly abuse stand short. I’ll stop, or jump back to see what my opponent is doing and react/punish accordingly.
Unless there are stealth nerfs super high chance my 2013 team will remain the same. Bison has very nice air priority, an excellent frame trap tic throw game, walkspeed so he can easily punish opponent screw ups with stand forward, ex psycho and reverse is still wonderful and getting out of pressure in this game is VERY VERY GOOD and i love devils reverse. Even with the meter nerf it’s still amazing, its great for scouting, zoning, combos, frustrating your opponent into screwing up, laming. It’s just awesome in this game.
warp nerf sucks but it’s still an option which means opponents still have to guess on wakeup. Blocking is a good mixup for Bison I’m telling you it’s okay to block with him, you will be surprised how many times your opponent lets you out free or gets mixed up themselves!
I’m optimistic about this character in 2013. I’m going to try to work on using his crouch fp more as an AA… I’m just so good with reaction neutral jumps and air to air with hell attack i never used it much. LordBBH, I know they shaved off a start up frame on it. Is it viable or still too slow? Hitbox seems odd… useful?
Bear with me a sec, I feel like I should explain some stuff before I get to c hp:
Bison has 3 AAs as we know: hell attack/nj mk/hk, s hk, c hp, and they are all used in different situations imo.
hell attack, neutral jump mk/hk is the most reliable. You will lose to air throws, and you can lose to early jump attacks if they predict your jump, but you will more than likely win or trade against jump ins and air to air. j mp is also the only reliable way I’ve found to counter Vega’s wall dive, although he can hit the punch early to beat you.
s hk is the easiest to use: it’s fast, it’s fairly good at trading, and the hitbox is pretty sensible, but it is slightly different from SSFIV. This is the go to AA for me because all I need to do is let go of the stick and time the button press.
c hp is slower, it’s easier to get crossed up since your hurtbox moves forward, but it is great for lower jumps (this may seem counter intuitive). Just based on where the hitbox appears to be, c hp is your better bet against tekken characters like Jin’s j hk, Kazuya’s j mk/hk, Heihachi j mk/hk, anything that has a low jump arc and/or a low hit box on the legs (or no hurtbox on the legs). I think a lot more research needs to be done regarding this move because it is a legit AA and it can do things that s hk cannot.
IMO currently the order in which you should consider your AAs is: hell attack > c hp > s hk. However, the easiest order to execute (mainly due to reaction time and assumption that you are either going back and forth or crouch blocking) is s hk > c hp > hell attack. Again, the reason that s hk is easier to use as an AA than c hp even when you’re blocking is that you most likely need to reposition for a successful c hp AA, whereas with s hk you can let go of the stick and usually just throw it out there for a trade/counter.
TL;DR my experience tells me that c hp can counter things that s hk just plain can’t (see bold for details). However, the hitbox is still funky, plus it moves you forward during active frames, so more experimentation is probably required. Also my reactions suck, I think normal people will have success if they experiment with c hp.
That’s one of the biggest problems I have with it. The fact that it moves you forward can make it hard to gauge whether or not you’ll actually connect with it, or whiff entirely. If they’re jumping too close to you and going for crossups, this doesn’t work at all and you’ll either whiff, or eat their jump attack. I guess not many characters have normals that are well-suited for stuffing crossups, but yeah.
But crouching HP actually has another problem I’d never noticed until recently. If you hit with the later active frames of it (which you need to be doing if you want to use it as an AA), it actually does 60 damage instead of 90. That’s terrible! Even neutral jump MK does more! (70) I always wondered why whenever I traded hits with it as an AA, it always felt like I was taking more damage than they were. Now I know. Also, maybe it’s just my bad luck with the jumping attacks I decided to use it against, but I practically never seemed to be able to put them in a counter hit state for further juggling. Even if you score a counter hit, you pretty much have to hit them at the peak of their jump to be able to connect anything else because of crouching HP’s recovery.
I dunno, I wanted to make crouching HP work but having to be on point and press the button sooo early (especially online) to get a whopping 60 damage out of it, that is if you don’t trade and end up taking more damage from their jump attack… why bother. If they’re jumping on top of you and you can react in time, I think it’s better to just try an immediate jump back HP. Or Hell Attack, of course.
Keep in mind that Bison does have one more very solid anti-air attack, although it’s not something you can use very often - level 3 cross arts. Paint the fence! When I was trying to get the achievement for 300 cross arts finishes, I would usually spend matches conditioning my opponents to think they could jump at Bison all they want without much fear of reprisal. Then right at the end when they jump for the nth time, they get swatted down to the ground with authority. It is a very viable anti-air, but be warned - it’s also not so great for crossups because the hitbox starts out a little further from where Bison is standing. And it has to be done somewhat early in their jump, if you do it when they’re near the peak of their jump (unless it’s someone like Dhalsim or Elena or Ibuki obviously), it will beat out ANY attack they stick in the air. Although you also have to be careful of characters that can change their air trajectory, like shotos with air tatsus (people still do those?!)… moves like that will push them forward and make the cross arts whiff, and missing a level 3 is one of the worst feelings. But keep it as an option to turn the tides in round 2 or 3, try to take note of how much they jump at you in the first round and you’ll have an idea of whether or not you’ll be able to nail them with this surprise.
You guys nailed it, I love neutral jump forward, even as pre-emptive means it’s safe because the hitbox is so far in front of Bison. You get a combo into sweep too. It’s great!
Hell attack is deadly when you have reactions
I sometimes use hk but the hitbox isn’t as great as SSF4. I need to study it closer
i had same issue with crouch fp… the weird hitbox with people falling through and getting blown up for it. Now that you brought the 60/90 thing, I feel it’s totally outclassed now- im better off mastering the roundhouse hitbox.
It’s like you said a few posts up… sometimes the smartest option is not to try to counter everything, but to just bide your time and block.
But that’s why I stopped trying to use crouching HP, the risk/reward ratio just isn’t good at all. If you fuck up the timing or get out-prioritized, you take a trade in which you probably come out behind on, or worst case scenario, you eat a full jump-in combo for big damage. If you succeed in hitting them out of the air, great, you just did 60 damage. Is that going to stop them from trying to jump again? Hell no. People jump jump jump jump all day long in this game until you give them a reason not to. Jumping MP-MP, standing HP xx Psycho Crusher* is a valid way of saying “Yo, stay out of the fucking air”. Crouching HP… just isn’t. It would have been nice if it got some sort of buff in 2013… maybe if they made it like Lili’s df+HK where it sets up a guaranteed juggle on airborne opponents. Even if it didn’t have the same priority as Lili’s godly kick, it would still have some use for getting good damage against jumpers without you having to leave the ground. Ah well…
Oh, there’s one more anti-air normal I forgot about - standing HP is pretty solid when done against people jumping in from a far distance trying to use long-range jumping attacks. You might not be in that situation every game, but it can still come in useful if they’re jumping at distances where Hell Attack won’t reach, and you’re feeling iffy about using standing HK as an anti-air. Just be wary of using it too much - you could get baited into doing it when you see them jump from a distance, but then they end up not throwing out an attack at all so your HP whiffs, and then they punish you when they hit the ground.
yes, I know that the optimal juggle after an air-to-air Jumping MP-MP is to do an early “meaty” standing MP that they land on, and then finish with standing HP xx Psycho Crusher (and possible tag cancel followup). A lot of times I tend not to do it and just go for guaranteed damage since you kinda have to judge the height they were at before you do the standing MP
Ex psycho crusher on wake up is a horrible idea sometimes. All the good people bait it out and you end up eating a 300+ combo. I main Bison and I bait ex psycho crusher on wake up all the time. Thats why I mix up the way I wake up. Because of the roll system in this game, Bison players tend to forget about waking up with Ex Devil Reverse. If you time it right in the corner and your opponent is trying to cross you up, you can even mix them up and get some good juggle damage in the corner.
Check out the first match on my Youtube channel Yungice89. Its the one vs. Vietnam Generals.
At least Bison has options, which is what it’s really about. EX psycho, EX DR, roll, teleport, block on wakeup are all good stuff. My other character is Bryan and he basically has 2 options: block or EX snake pit for the armor.
Unrelated question: I see lots of Bisons do hell attack into cl mp, c mp/s hp psycho, but I hardly ever see any Bisons follow up a connected DR with cl mp/s mp, s mk, c hk. Why don’t more people use the first mp?
Some people don’t know you can actually connect that. I’ve done it online and actually surprised people. I wouldn’t have known I could do it either if it wasn’t for the Brady guide. It’s like 222 compared to the DR>S.Mk>Cr.HK which is like 180. I prefer to go for more damage but in a laggy match I just keep it simple and go for the 180 combo off of a DR.
Off of Devil’s Reverse I usually do crouching MP, standing MK-crouching HK. Sometimes I end it with standing HK instead - people like to mash on buttons and quick recover whenever they have the opportunity. If they quick recover, they’re staying in your face which is exactly where you want them - depending on the person/player I might hang back and see if they try to mash out a DP on wakeup or something. Ending the juggle with crouching HK does give you that hard knockdown, but in the game’s current state people love to roll forward after it, which will screw up your scissor kick charge. If you jump back after them in anticipation of the roll, you end up looking like a fool if they don’t roll and get up normally, and you’ve given them a lot of space.
(Of course, this will be less of an issue in 2013 and ending juggles in the slide’s hard knockdown will be much better, people will learn not to roll unless it’s a last resort, because the danger of getting thrown and losing all that red life is too much)
The trick to charging to the hard knockdown is to down-back charge. If they don’t roll, you still have your scissor kick charge. If they try to roll, then I’m just going to DR vortex them all day until they stop rolling. It’s funny to see them keep on rolling after I smacked them twice in a row with the DR roll vortex.
Yeah, i only go for the full reverse combo if I’m feeling the connection. But it seems spacing dependent sometimes. That move is a lot of fun and benefits from the lack of focus attacks (another mechanics I don’t miss… fei long focus attack into crumple into ultra anyone? HAHAHA fuck that game!!!)
DR into s mp, s mk, c hk should work all the time except when you are at max s mp range, in which case the pushback on s mp will push them out of your s mk range. As with the follow up to hell attack, you want them to land on your punch.
I was watching some Steve videos and Steve seems to get a lot of mileage out of going under enemy jumpins. Is dash under viable for Bison in this game? It seems to kinda/sorta work half the time, does anyone else have more definitive success or failure with this?
8 extra frames might not seem like the end of the world, but it could make a major difference if your opponent is trying to bait it. Of course we do have other defensive options, like the EX PC and of course EX Devil’s Reverse, so…