Team ?/Steve Fox Thread

That’s a shame sir, and it is doubly painful since I see you play Guilty Gear as well - another of my favorite games. Venom’s play-style is one of the most creative in all fighting games, and I’d love to see how you use him against my Jam.

In any case, I’ll have the Law x Steve post up this weekend, and I welcome all of your input. Particularly, I’d like to hear your thoughts on gem setups. I tend to go all meter all the time, but I haven’t put significant thought into more complicated combinations.

Ok then, let’s pop the cap with a rundown of how I rock the Law x Steve pair:

Law x Steve - In a Nutshell:

[details=Spoiler]On paper, Law x Steve isn’t the best team in the game. And although the word “best” is pretty much determined by one’s personal opinion, the idea of Law x Steve being one of the most fun, interesting, synergetic, and underrated combinations in the entire game is far from a mere long-shot. Some Pros and Cons of the team in general will summarize majority of what I will have to say next:

Pros:
▲ Crazy Meter Building + Ridiculous Damage = Yummy!
▲ Solid Point (Law) + Natural Anchor (Steve) = Well-structured duo.
▲ Amazing Synergy - Law can set Steve up to rack in serious damage via both launcher and tag-cancel. On the other hand, a tag cancel off the ground bounce of Steve’s L-Flicker Jab (especially in corners) grants Law extra hits and juggle opportunities with his improved Flip Kick. Of course, there are other (possibly even better ways) Steve can hold Law’s hand in getting in the game with good damage and set-up opportunities.
▲ Consistent complementation from both characters - Law’s ability to get the jump on an opponent quickly to bring Steve in for massive damage and hard knock-down setups along with the meter Law provides Steve with compliments Steve’s strengths. Also, Steve’s counter-punching ability and solid pressure game (easily available to him thanks to Law’s set-ups) can both quickly finish the match and bring Law back in when needed.
▲ Heavily underused - Let’s go non-mainstreamers!
▲ Did I mention how swag-tastic this team really is?

Cons:
▼ None of these guys carry major SF char. traits. This can put the team at a critical disadvantage against characters that use these traits to punish the weaknesses present in the duo.
▼ Can be extremely momentum based in certain situations.
▼ Both Law and Steve have weak wake-up options (especially Steve). Keeping that in mind, Steve with his back against the wall with no meter (as JMSquier stated before) is a dead [but dashy] Brit. Law, on the other hand, can EX FFR his way out (risky) or break through poorly executed pressure strings using his rather impressive pokes.
▼ At times it can take quite a bit of work to crack a defensive opponent open. And although Law can do so relatively easier compared to Steve, a foe hell-bent on not letting you break through his/her defensive shell can be a real bugger.

It all boils down to how you utilize this team, really. I’ve seen people use both characters as stand-alones; meaning they make full use of the tools each character possesses but, do little in terms of “teamwork”. Of course, there are those creative and experimental chaps such as “T00LMAN TAYL0R” who go far enough as to run Steve on point![/details]

Gems Setup:

[details=Spoiler]Thought I’d mention the gems I use before going on to the strategic part since my tactics are heavily influenced by gem usage. Note that wherever a “x amount of” line shows up, then there is a certain number in the game which I can’t seem to remember for gems that have such activation properties.

• Law: 3 Onslaught (Meter) Gems:
→ Opponent blocks x amount of attacks. (Must for defensive opponents and anyone who blocks [pretty much everyone].)
→ Partner connects with launcher. (Always handy to have this as a spare gem in case the others run out. Or, this can be stacked with the other activated gems if you’ve got your offense game going.)
→ X number of hits [normals/specials] blocked. (The safer option.) OR X number of hits [normals/specials] endured/eaten/taken/whatever. (If you know you’re most likely going to get a beating.)

• Steve: 3 Power Gems:
→ Opponent blocks x amount of attacks. (This is especially important for Steve since you’re mainly going to be pressuring. Plus the sight of a scary power gem being activated while your opponent sits there and blocks helps in making him/her lose his/her patience; which is what you will be hunting for. Who knew fear could play a role in tricky mindgames!)
→ Partner connects with launcher. (I usually bring my Steve in via launcher just for this gem. So, this is my go-to-gem for Steve most of the times.)
→ X number of hits [normals/specials] blocked. (I won’t even mention the other option as I did with Law, because once my Steve starts to take a pounding, it’s time to call him out. No use activating a power gem in those scenarios.)

Alternatively, if I tend to embrace double-launcher combos (2 launchers in one combo), I replace the last (or middle) gem for each char. with a “Connect with Launcher” gem. The gem will be activated with the first launcher, the second launcher will bring that char. right back in with a fresh gem to boost him up.

The idea of this setup is pretty obvious: Law builds crazy meter without gems. With gems, he will satisfy (hell, even spoil!) Steve’s meter needs. Steve’s damage is already great. And with a readily available gem here and there, he is more than just a monster… [/details]

General Strategy:

[details=Spoiler]The whole idea behind my playstyle of this team is to use Law as the go-to-man for getting Steve in and out. Although Law can do consequential damage on his own, the availability of a power-house Steve isn’t really an option to brainstorm over. It should be noted here that Law is the meat-and-potatoes of this team. His concrete normals and overall better ability to handle pressure than Steve is the whole reason he is on point and tends to have much better match-ups than Steve. Plus, having a half-baked and/or tough-to-master Steve is never a good idea to run on point as the person who lands the first [successfully progressed] hit can take a huge advantage from the start of the game.

So what does that really mean once pitched in battle? Well, Law starts off the match with the idea of getting Steve in quickly for the good amount of damage he can deal in minimal time. How quickly does Law really have to bring him in? When at least 1-1 1/2 meter is built. And the Onslaught gems aid in achieving just that in minimal time if Law is played aggressively (as he should be). Of course, Law doesn’t play a tool-ish roll throughout the whole match. In case matches get lengthy (which I will touch on later), relying on a beaten-up and predictable Steve is suicidal. So, Law’s comboing ability is always a key factor to remember throughout the match. Thus, enforcing his position as the meat-and-potatoes of the team.
When trying to bring Steve in, cr.MK is the crown jewel of Law’s arsenal when a ground-to-ground heavy match is being played. On the other hand, a jump-happy or other confident/momentum fueled position allows the implication of his quicker but shorter pokes such as cr.LP and more importantly, cr.LK. Once connected with a successful launcher or tag cancel, I use Steve as a thundering rhino on [Power gem] steroids and almost always end his combos with a M or H Flicker jab. There is no better way to pressure opponents than to throw them in the corner with a hard knockdown. This opens another gateway: Hard-tagging Steve out to bring Law in. This tactic can be risky. If the opponent rolls, then it’s a no go (but the free grapple is always a delight). And if he/she has a quick, long range attack that can lead into punishing combos (Rufus’s cr.HP>Launcher being a practical example), then Law is going to come in taking an unwanted beating.

But tagging Steve in and out freely isn’t the ground rule in favorable matchups. Steve’s midrange pokes are great for pressure and his projectile further compliments his midrange game. This is where Steve’s ability to end a match in 2 or 3 clean hits comes into play. Connecting with the adulated cr./st.MP or any other combo-able poke leads into Foxhunt. Here, meter is an important factor since EX Sonic Fang is pure gold. The damage and combo extending possibilities that stem from it are worth dying for. Or, if I decide to spend the meter to bring Law in, I connect with Skyscraper reps enough to guarantee a corner carry and end with LP Flicker jab. A spot-on tag cancel from there brings Law in safely and allows him to net some cheesy (normally heavily scaled) damage by connecting with cr.HP>DSS-Dragon Knuckle-Flight OR cr.HP>Shaolin Spin Kicks OR Flip Kicks combo(s).

Overall, Law and Steve are played quite generally once pit into combat. There is nothing fancy about how I use them in a general sense. The BnBs are what majority of the players use with the tag-oriented combos being the exceptions. This is applied with the concept of ending the match quickly in mind. This is especially important for Steve. Landing those clean hits by making full use of his pressure game is extremely important. It’s sort of like playing Jecht in Dissidia 012 Duodecim. You have a power-house character at your disposal who ends up having to turtle and run for his life if the opponent starts to hold his/her ground against you. But this team isn’t limited to just that! Although the better idea is to finish things off before it starts to come down to the wire since dealing with pressure is something both chars. lack, I play this team “passive-aggressively” as well. It’s hard to describe in words, but if you watch some of CORN Sethlololol’s matches, you’ll see how he uses both Law and Kuma [a powerhouse that is kept at anchor; remind you of someone?] to fend for themselves at times rather than hand-in-hand buddies. Don’t let the opponent realize your strategy entirely if you start to become predictable. Mix things up a bit. Having trouble bringing Law back in when your opponent knows he can bully Steve around (or vice versa)? Keep Steve in! Let that pressure game rip some more by utilizing surprise Peekaboo armor properties to baffle him up. I always make sure that I’m not always tooling any character, even though the main idea usually revolves around that playstyle. It’s important for me to spice things up a bit even if the opponent is having a hard time dealing with my general strategy. For me, the mindgames matter a lot more than brute force since both Law and Steve lack extreme mixup games.[/details]

Well then, there you have it; I hope it was helpful. And I hope for the weekend to arrive sooner and more importantly, for you to post your thoughts on time! :slight_smile:

BTW, I think any “in your face” Jam would body any Venom. But then again, 2/5S is the repeller. Score a 2D knockdown and get Venom’s balls-game (no pun intended) started and we might actually have a match there. :smiley:

I’m running law/steve and i agree with pretty much everything you said. I even use the same gems you suggest. I’m a big fan of the pair because I haven’t put a ton of time into sfxt and it feels very “sfxt” if that makes any sense.

Ghost, excellent writeup, and thank you for throwing your hat into the ring and revitalizing the discussion. Really, you’ve laid the groundwork for the team, but I do have a few things to add. First, let’s take a closer look at Law himself, and then look at a few more things on how he works with Steve.

The Man They Call Marshall Law

[details=Spoiler] Like Steve, Law is a character who is never going to hit you if don’t press a button. He has some threatening lows (Namely cr.MK), but his two overheads (f.MP and DSS f.P) are both very slow on startup. While f.MP is safe if blocked, very strict timing is required for any followup, and DSS f. P is extremely unsafe, very noticeably so, and seemingly telegraphed days in advance. Further, all of Law’s attacks have a slower startup on average than most of the cast. Law is a strict counterpuncher, no more or less.

So why then is Law considered one of the best characters in the game? Because he does his one job very, very well. Almost everything Law does is safe on block, and can be converted into a full combo on hit. Law is able to poke the opponent with impunity until they are annoyed with his bird cries and attempt to shut him up with their own offense. Try to attack him on the ground? B. Mp or cr. MK into a full combo, and you just lost half of your life. Try to jump at him? Flip-kicked into a full combo, and you just lost half of your life.

Perhaps even greater is the fact that Law does not need meter at all for combos, as Ghost touches on in his post. While it’s possible to eke out a little more damage with EX attacks, it’s usually not worth the cost, and Law does not gain any distinct offensive options when he has a bar or two at the ready. This really is an advantage - since he doesn’t use it, it can all be saved for his partner. Law’s basic combos all do great damage on their own, and allow his partner to tag in for easy followups. What a team player![/details]

What does Law offer Steve?

[details=Spoiler]Recall in my previous post (many moons ago) I argued that Steve needs 4 things from his partner:

  1. Meter building

  2. Ability to play on point

  3. A corner game/corner carrying ability, and

  4. A good neutral game

    Law does all of this. We already covered 1 and 4, and the combination of these two covers 2. That leaves the corner game. Steve really wants his opponent in the corner, and Law can get them there in one combo. Generally, Law is going to end a combo with either Dragon’s Flight, which covers a large amount of ground, or Shaolin Kicks, which leads into a tag to Steve to skyscraper combo. Suffice to say, if you land a hit on your opponent, he will find his back is to the wall. This is great for Steve, and equally great for Law. If the opponent panics and tries any offensive move, Law has a counter for it that will put them right back where they were. If your opponent is scared to attack, he has a decent 50/50 with df.LK or f.MP, both of which move Law forward for additional pressure. Land a hit, tag in Steve, do a couple flicker cancels, and the match is yours.[/details]

What does Steve offer Law?

Spoiler

Damage. You should be able to get 400+ damage off a tag in combo, using only one bar, with either character tagging into the other. Steve can also set up some pandora combos for Law, after hitting with either LP flicker or Skyscraper close to the corner. Additionally, Law can struggle against a heavy projectile game, since he has limited ways around it. Steve can dance around said projectiles to work his way into a position that is advantageous for both of them.

Weaknesses

[details=Spoiler] The biggest weakness with the team is that Law and Steve play a very similar game. Neither character has the ability to open up the opponent if he plays very defensively. The duo will also struggle against good zoning. While Steve can use his fancy footwork to maneuver his way in, Law has no such options, and will have to play a patient game to position himself or just walk them to the corner. Neutral jumps are also a distinct weakness for both characters; neither can punish them easily, and if you make a bad read, you’re losing a good chunk of health. As Ghost mentioned, if you ever lose momentum, you are going to have a bad time. We’ve discussed Steve’s defensive woes, and Law more or less shares them. While everything Law does is safe on block, most of his moves are a few frames slower than the majority of the cast, meaning he’s not going to beat out his opponents attacks if they strike first. Under heavy pressure, Law is limited to either using an alpha counter, or trying for a Hail-Mary play with EX FFR or EX flip kick.

At a metagame level, because Steve and Law play the same game, your opponent never has to adjust his mindset - he can fight either character in more or less the same manner. For example, you’re not able to switch gameplans to a more defensive zoning strategy if you’re opponent wants to play that game; you have to stay in mid-to-close range. This might not seems so bad, but any time you are forced into a situation you are at a disadvantage, and if you’re opponent is very good at keeping you out of the range where you want to be, you are going to have a very frustrating game.[/details]

Miscellaneous Gimmick - The EX Shaolin mixup

[details=Spoiler]Law x Steve has one way to force a 50/50 mixup - Law's patented EX Shaolin kicks! Usually this move is fairly useless - it is unsafe on block, and adds little in the way of damage that Law cannot already do without spending the meter. However, it has a unique quality - the last kick in the sequence has a very significant delay. So significant in fact, that if your opponent is blocking the move, there is enough time to tag in Steve, who can then go for either his standing overhead or a low like cr. LK after the third kick. If the opponent gets hit by either, they will also get hit by Law's final kick, bouncing them off the wall, and leading into a Steve combo.

Pretty neat right? Well, it is, but it has very limited use. For one, it costs two meter for merely a chance at damage, and that’s two meter you’ll never get back if your opponent guesses right. Also, it’s something that is likely to work only once - if you’re opponent has seen this before, an alpha counter will put a quick stop to your shenanigans. Still, it adds something to the Law x Steve duo that they otherwise lack, and hey: if you have your opponent on the ropes with no meter and you only need one clean hit to end the match, why not give it a shot?[/details]

In Summary:

[details=Spoiler]Pros:

  • High damage
  • great corner pressure and carry
  • Steve can bogart the meter
  • Great tag in combos
  • Similar gameplan means you’re at a great advantage when you have offensive momentum

Con:

  • Similar gameplan means you’re at great disadvantage when you’re on defense, and there is little recourse if your offensive strategy isn’t working
  • very limited mixups
    -Struggles against good zoning[/details]

I’ll leave it there for a bit to see if any discussion stirs up about this particular team. If anyone has any requests for who we should look at next, I’m certainly open to suggestion, but if no one has a preference I’m looking at Sagat, Vega, or Marduk. I’m planning on doing a write up for every character in the game, so feel free to suggest the most ridiculous team you can think of. Who knows - maybe Poison x Steve is somehow the best duo in the game!

Phenomenal write-up JM! The advanced but root-level ground you covered is pure gold; and the EX Shaolin mixup is something I’m going to throw out online tonight since I’m done messing around with it in the lab. In fact, it’s contributed to making me further work with Steve’s Gatling Gun. Here are some setups I came up with to land Gatling Gun:

• Blocked Normal/EX Shaolin Spin Kicks:

[details=Spoiler]Tag Cancel while Law is kicking [& spinning] away at the opponent, preferably throw Shaolin Spin Kicks out during a block string and tag cancel at the start of it. This is to ensure maximum damage. Pester the opponent with Steve’s jabs but make sure the OPPONENT IS STANDING UP! Don’t attempt this if you’re letting loose on a crouching opponent, of course. Once Law is just about to land the final hit, Duck your way in. It works better if you use the LK version, keeping this in mind reminds you to stay close to the opponent. Gatling Gun should come out right when Law’s leg just about moves away after landing the final kick, the opponent will most likely not think of escaping this way. Then of course, he’ll find himself in a flurry of punches.
→ I personally prefer the EX Spin kicks since I would most likely throw this out to troll the opponent since there isn’t crazy damage to loaf off it. Not really worth in actual meta-game play since a follow up from Law’s end via Tag cancel is only possible during the later stages of GG (in other words, close to useless).[/details]

• Standing Pressure:

Spoiler

Heading says it all. Throw a cheesy Gatling Gun off a block string against a standing opponent. Often rare to come across especially in pro-level play. But, there is a way to make it this situation occur more often, which leads me to my most practical setup:

• Instill Fear of Overheads:

[details=Spoiler]I’ve been testing this out against local players, and it’s served me quite well. Of course, this is mainly another factor obtained from solid mind games. Best of all, this is built for Law x Steve since both of them can throw out overheads. The continuation via links off the overheads isn’t a must, but it sure as hell will make the opponent choke and block standing up a routine. Sethlololol has a creative way of landing Law’s overhead as a counterattack (which leads to a ground-bounce which leads to pain):

→ Catch the opponent with a b.MP into Junkyard. Add additional Junkyard. Right after last hit of 2nd Junkyard (once frames cool down), charge Shaolin Spin Kicks. You will have a counterattack loaded just in time for you to still get the better of the opponent after he/she smacks the ground. The option is then yours if you want to pace around a bit and trick the opponent into the overhead, or let it rip right when he gets up for a meaty.

Dishing out Steve’s overhead to pester the opponent here and there is important for the mind games in not just landing the eventual GG, but for the loss of the opponent’s patience as well. Once you have the opponent locked in a routine standing block, release with a GG off a block or a meaty on the opponent’s wake-up. The wake-up option becomes more practical when you’ve been landing overheads consistently after a good amount of wake-up’s you force on the opponent.
Of course, GG is never guaranteed. But this method gives you a higher chance of a successful guess… unless you’re up against a wake-up DP happy son-of-a-gun.[/details]

• Gatling Gun Follow-ups:

[details=Spoiler]Not much tech to talk about in terms of Shaolin Spin Kicks setup. So, the following will be based on a already-in-ring Steve’s GG hit. Note that I will not dwell into meterless/1 meter followups, since there are more than plenty which the majority of you should figure out by messing around with the options you have.

→ 2 Bars in Stock (3 Bars Used in Total):
Land GG and tag cancel right away (once Steve lands the grapple, before he lands the first machine-gunnish punch). With Law: stcl.HK x2. Once Steve knocks the opponent up: j.HK (using Law), cr.HP xx Super Art.

→ 3 Bars in Stock (4 Bars Used in Total):
Land GG and tag cancel right away (once Steve lands the grapple, before he lands the first machine-gunnish punch). With Law: stcl.HK x2. Once Steve knocks the opponent up: j.HK (using Law), cr.HP xx Cross Art. (My personal favourite. Can’t remember the exact damage, but it’s around 2/3 + of the opponent’s health.)

The required bar is built during GG always when using Law. Activated Onslaught gems give you an extra 1/2 (+) bar after the end of the combo.[/details]

This discussing is just starting to heat up IMO. :wink:

Haven’t seen a single one ever since the v2013 patch. :confused:

Good stuff Ghost! I Gotta say though - I’ve only ever used gatling gun on two occasions:

1.) If I KNOW my opponent is going to hard tag, or
2.) If I KNOW my opponent is going to backdash on wakeup

The risk/reward ratio is just so extreme, but I’m all for finding ways to use every tool we’ve got.

On a different note, quick update: Sagat x Steve works very well, and not just for alliterative purposes. We’ll talk about why later this weekend!

Interesting indeed. Although I can see the pair covering up for each other’s weaknesses, I can’t see the complementing/synergy part. Again, this will be interesting.

EDIT: BTW, I punished a Ryu (x Jin, but that doesn’t matter. It’s Ryu we’re focusing on) player earlier today with Gatling Gun around 4 times in 3 matches (around 7 rounds fought in total). GG didn’t come out as a natural reaction, but rather I kept my distance from him on purpose to bait a mistimed fireball. He became so predictable (again, mind games [if played properly] are a major factor [IMO] in Steve’s game since counter-punching is at its peak when healthy amounts of accurate predictions are applied) that I would HK/Roundhouse Duck (because of the distance I kept, and because it is the fastest form of ducking. Perfect for punishing fireballs), dodge the fireball (which would barely move a couple of centimeters from his hands), and catch the sucker as a punish and sometimes as a proper grapple [as a typical reaction, he’d block].

Thought I’d throw that out there to confirm a legitimate punish for fireball abusers. :stuck_out_tongue:

Gattling gun definitely works as a fireball punish, though I tend to use Skyscraper in those situations out of habit. You should be able to catch Jin as well if he tries to space you out with his nonsense. Just a thought - will gattling gun blow through Jin’s armored stance? It might be worth looking into, as I keep running into Jin players who use that extremely often.

1055 damage Pandora reset with Bryan/Steve:

Also, Bryan/Steve combo vid:

Good stuff, mate. Nice to see some activity sparked up in the Steve forums lol.

doing something crazy and running Lei/ steve… not an easy team to run lol but its fun.

A video of how you’re still holding your sh*t would be nice, LOL! :slight_smile: